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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Orts
[quote]Originally posted by gtill
Bob, usually I'd agree, but right now there's a push to showcase and pay for new ideas in complete energy independent systems, and right now Hawaii is leading the way at the consumers expense. There are billions of dollars being thrown at any conceivable energy independence programs, and why can't Hawaii be at the top of the begging list.
Yes..Hawaii is leading the way. Just yesterday the Governor is pushing foward "Electric Car Stations Islandwide".
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/articl...G/81203018
The thing about that is we will be using more electricity to run our cars which in turn we will be even more dependant on Hawaiian Electric. Grant it our gasoline bill will go away...but our larger electric bill will more than make up for it.
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Aloha RobGuz...
FYI! HELCO is a monopoly... Comparisons between HELCO and PG&E, etc. don't work. Grumbling in Puna means nothing to HELCO. If I understand it correctly, HELCO is not required to accept extra power generated by residential solar/wind electric systems. They have a cap on the amount generated from resources other than their own.
Punatics are resourceful, determined, and getting stronger. If you haven't joined Friends of Puna's Future, please do so. Maybe you could start an alternative energy users group...
Barbara
As long as I can make my own electricity and control how much of it I use, I can't agree that Helco is a monopoly.
As long as I can raise my own poultry and tomatoes, I can break any egg or tomato monopoly.
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you might not agree, but you would be wrong [
]
I wonder if there is a way to setup up a coop power company for Puna? Force Helco share their power lines or take them with eminent domain.
Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
They started a deal in Texas where you can opt to buy power from a competitor but it is kind of a scam too.
Who ever you get your bill from still has to pay the line company a big chunk and of course that is on your bill.
The real way to take care of the problem is to get some PV panels and batteries and tell Helco to shove it.
You would be amazed at how little electricity you can get by with.
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I know how little I can get away with.. we use around 13kWh a day. I work from home so I don't think it can get much lower.
right now the cost of making the PV panels and batteries are to high for usage everywhere, then there is the environmental costs.
I am thinking more wind than solar.
http://www.mariahpower.com/
Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
The average wind speed in Puna is about 7mph, I thought. Good luck with that.
Most turbines have a cut in speed higher than that and don't start producing any worth while juice till about 12mph. Vawt is the only way to go though, lower cut in speed.
The problem with buying ready made crap is they use cost justification to jack the price up.
The only way to do wind turbine and ever come close to actually paying for it is either to build your own and or live somewhere that has steady 20+ mph winds.
Have you got yourself a couple of Kill-a-watt meters? they are wonderful tools.
you can get them off Ebay for 20 bux.
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If you all could get together and buy 43 million shares, you should be able to get control of the company.
Seriously, anyone here own shares of Hawaiian Electric? It looks like it's held it's own quite well against the Dow over the years. I guess those high rates are good for something.
The more I look at it, the more I think I should be buying....
Puna: Our roosters crow first
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Wind would be great but it is pretty hard to get a productive location. The Windspires look neat but if you step back and look at wind power in general there are almost no commercially successful vertical axis wind turbines. There is a lot of argument over why. However, part of their sales pitch is that they are only 30 feet tall. If you approached the problem in a totally dispassionate way and looked at what the industry does when sizing a wind turbine you see that before they even discuss what type of turbine to install they evaluate the site. That includes evaluating the wind profile going up from the ground a considerable ways. Right away you see that 30 feet is nothing. Wind turbines are routinely mounted on 150 foot towers because that is where the wind is. The wind speed might be double up there what it is at ground lever and since energy is proportional to the cube of the wind speed that means the available energy is 8 times greater.
It is human nature to seek out new things. Sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot. In this case you can buy horizontal axis wind turbines on a tall tower that are commercially available off the shelf all day long and those companies have been in business for decades but it is difficult to find a company selling vertical axis machines that is anything but flash in the pan. You can always find offers for the turbines because they seem to appeal to our nature to get ahead of the crowd, get rich quick, do things better, whatever. These companies always tout how low their towers are as though that is a good thing. It is good in the sense that maintenance is easy, but anyone who had seriously tried to install an effective wind turbine would know right off the bat that low is bad. It is not even about the design of the turbine. Low is bad. High is good. Wind good enough for a turbine is too windy for people to hang out in and do anything besides windsurf. The windspire brochure showed a bank of these turbines on a building top adjacent to what appeared to be a restaurant dining area. That is ridiculous.
I sound really negative. That is not my intent. I just want to point out that wind power is demanding in terms of proper location. My property would be no good, for example.
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A few random thoughts:
Part of the problem with Helco is the history of power generation on the island: When sugar cane was a big industry lots of the power was generated co-gen from the mills. When the sugar industry collapsed they were totally unprepared for the rapid switch to oil.
The major cost of a solar system is the parts (panels, inverter, batteries) and not the labor. I just put a 12 panel (2,100 watt) system on our house and the material was $13,000. (Labor was free, since I'm a contractor, but would be one or two thousand, unless you put in a big complicated system.)
Two companies want to generate power using bio fuels. Helco will only buy power from one of them because they do not want to shut down any of their oil burning plants.
Solar and wind alone on a mass scale cannot replace oil--the power supply would be too little at night. But combined with geothermal and bio-fuels and the Big Island could have a good power supply and burn no oil.
Jerry
Art and Orchids B&B
http://www.artandorchids.com
