Protect our children!

[csgray]

Tom
You keep emphasizing that this was a "homosexual child molester". Do you mean to imply that a "heterosexual child molester" is more acceptable to you? This is a "child molester" period. Not a heterosexual or a homosexual child molester, just a child molester, which is an abomination and unforgivable violence against young innocents who have extremely limited ability to defend themselves.

Statistically, most child molestations are adult males preying upon minor females. White males who are familiar to the families of their victims are the most common perpetrators. This includes ministers, teachers, coaches, relatives, and family friends. Frequently families, police, and prosecutors do not pursue prosecutions to "spare" the victim from testifying. This leaves the perpetrator free to molest again. This is far more common than events like the bail jumping incident you cited. Those cops, prosecutors and families are not "liberals" they are just misguided in their attempt to "protect" the victim. Many victims live with fear and shame that casts a shadow over the rest of their lives because everyone involved just wanted to pretend it never happened. The victims I have known whose families had the courage to pursue prosecution have never expressed regret for that, but every one I know whose family, or the legal system, just covered it up is haunted by how many other children were probably victimized by the same person.

Carol

[JWFITZ]

I don't mind being un-subtle. Why stop here?

Child abuse and the culture that supports it is institutionalized in what passes for the current version of Christianity. If you work in the industry of dealing with abuse, and an industry it is, you will rarely, in my case NEVER, encounter an abuse case that doesn't come out of a church home. While the Catholic Church has got a lot of rap for the whole thing, and rightly so, studies will show that the rate of abuse is every bit as high in Protestant households. Data is poor to non-existent, as funding for studies is very difficult to come by because of the institutional nature of the problem. Considering that you can have many, many, well documented cases of various Dioceses knowing and covering up the behavior of their various agents and the fact that the whole lot of the Funky Hat Set isn't tramped off to prison under RICO or some else will show you that we, as a culture, take a hands off attitude to something we really should not.

And of course, the data that exists only exists addressing institutional abuse. For a sociologist or elsewise to launch a credible peer reviewed study questioning whether religious belief itself is a causal element in abuse behavior would be tantamount to committing professional suicide, and you'd run a fair chance of getting shot, for real, as well. I'd suggest, however, that if you on weekly basis attend a institution where cross dressing fellows parade around with phallic symbols attended by young boys and you don't feel that's a bit weird, well, hard to say what's up.

Children, in our society, are looked at as personal property in a manner in which nearly nothing else is anymore. It used to be legal to beat a slave, and your wife, and even not so long ago, your animals. At this point, I doubt it's an exaggeration to suggest that you are more likely to go to jail for beating your pet dog than your child. This should frighten you, because even a dog is in a better place to resist and protect itself--why no advocates for children? Studies suggest that at least a quarter of boys and girls are subjected to some type of sexual abuse at least once in their youth. This is a shocking statistic, and shows that abuse is utterly endemic in our culture. While we maintain a cultural idea that you as a parent have a right to raise a child in whatever means you see fit, or feed whatever weird ideas into a kid's head you see fit, or fiddle with them in the way you see fit--as long as you're discrete, kinda--we make mockery of the justice issue.

Here is the link to perhaps the most broad based peer reviewed study of Catholic related abuse in the US, commissioned by the Catholic church.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/rep...html#prev1

Note that this report only deals with bonefide church abuses among the ordained priesthood. You'll need to read it for yourself. Of course the report does not address in any manner whether the church itself creates "a climate of the acceptability of abuse"--a question I feel far more important--but when 6 to 10 percent of all priests have been accused of molestation, by the churches own data--and has paid nearly a HALF BILLION dollars worth of settlement money--jeez, I mean, go figure.

[Jon]

LOL...

you make is sound like Christians are the most evil child molesters on the planet. Could it be that 80% of the US consider themselves Christians, so if the child molesters come from the same demographic, you would expect 80% of them to also claim to be Christians.

Before you condemn all Christians and you might want to look into the Muslim faith also and see how bad things really can be.


Half a billion wow...

at 1 million each that is 500 cases... How many churches are there in the USA? How many priests or preachers?
from what I can find there are 600,000 churches in the USA.

So is it religion that is at fault or again, just the demographics of the country?


Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[JWFITZ]

Consider the magnitude of the problem.

3,500,000 cases reported nationwide of child abuse and neglect.

[url]http://ndas.cwla.org/data_stats/access/predefined/Report.asp?PageMode=1&%20ReportID=134&%20GUID={57AB0B75-0FD0-400C-8BF5-7512C2CC760B}#Table
[/url]

Of the nearly 800,000 substantiated cases from 2006, the vast majority of abusers were the child's own parents.

[url]
http://ndas.cwla.org/data_stats/access/p...PageMode=1&%20ReportID=490&%20GUID={375DD62C-D8DD-4330-B452-30D55073A89D}#Table[/url]

And to make sure--the vast majority of the time the abuser is indeed the biological parent.

[url]
http://ndas.cwla.org/data_stats/access/p...PageMode=1&%20ReportID=617&%20GUID={1A80ADDD-A327-492B-A18C-C83D5C6AED8F}#Table[/url]

And someone out there wants to argue we don't have a culture of abuse? And what the hell does Islam have to do with this? Because they're freaky, burn their wives with kerosene(divorce is prohibited, I guess lighting someone on fire isn't), this should somehow justify the current status quo in the US?

And if these links exprire for some reason--here is the gateway to these Gov reported stats, in case someone thinks I'm making this stuff up. It would be good if we were all a bit more informed about the magnitude of the issue.

[url]
http://ndas.cwla.org/data_stats/access/p...nTopicID=1[/url]

[roseroo14]

I knew that the moment that I used the word homosexual I would be critiqued for my using that tiding. Just the use of that word enrages some because it is not a jubilant and rhapsodic word. So as not to offend, let me change my phrasing to this.

Frank Lefrandt 47 was arrested for sexually assaulting a 13 year old. During the investigation it was summerize that Frank’s sexual preference was young males. If that makes some more comfortable by not putting a label on poor Frank as a “homosexual degenerate” so be it. I stand politically corrected and agree that a child molester who abuses children should be brought to trial. That “person” who is convicted of molestation of a child should receive the “max” that the law will allow.

csgray wrote:
Do you mean to imply that a "heterosexual child molester" is more acceptable to you?

Carol, why would you make a statement like that? Do you actually believe that any form of child molestation is appropriate to me? The rest of your argument is extremely valid and I agree with you whole heartedly.

The Lack

[Menehune]

quote:
Originally posted by KathyH
"Menehune, you asked why so few replies to this topic.
I think it says nothing about how people feel about children, and everything about the incivility and antagonism that has been popping up in the forum in the last year. Post and you get attacked and ranted at and insulted ... I'll probably be sorry I replied ..."

KathyH - Yes - I feel the same - but the issue is too serious to ignore.

This is a disturbing topic and it WILL bring forth disturbing and variant views.

quote:
Originally posted by JWFITZ
"I've got a serious case of issue fatigue and ignorance fatigue and have been holding off on this whole topic as it looks to be yet another that will go in such a manner as to solve nothing but obviously demonstrate why we've problems with child abuse, theft, corrupt business and all the rest. Which is, ill-informed self interest."

JWFITZ - having followed a LOT of your posts, I understand your fatigue symptoms. Yes - you are right about solving the issue but even here in lowly PUNA it can be a beginning. Any forum or debate is a platform for exposing and correcting ill-informed self interest - even our own.

quote:
Originally posted by JWFITZ
"Any sociologist can tell you in a heartbeat how to fix the vast majority of the child abuse problem. The solution, however, isn't sociologically acceptable, and I imagine the status quo will prevail."

JWFITZ - as has been asked - please elaborate - I am confident of your ability to make the answer palatable to PUNAWB.

As JWFITZ has shown in a few of his latest post and others in theirs - the diversity of blame is daunting. The answers even more so. Where to start?

The "church" or religion has much to account for thru the centuries. It has "prosecuted" it's beliefs to the detriment of hundreds of cultures - Hawaii especially. Yet - It is the BASIS of all human societies - even Hawaiians (Akua, Pele, Kapua, Ki'i.....). There has never been found an "atheistic" culture or society - only speculations. Religion is abusive by definition "containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs". Until, we as a "christian" society truly realize that these are MEN and WOMEN with all the frailties of human beings and NOT "deities" unto themselves - full justice for the abused will never come.

The "great social" experiment of defining "family" and each individuals rights in the family unit through legislation continues. Until - the government takes FULL responsibility for raising our children - we will have to struggle with the "old formula" and it's MANY weaknesses. A convicted abusive parent should lose ALL parenting rights - BUT can society/government pick up the slack? Abusive situations exists even in the "foster care" system set-up to protect our children.

Tribes were able to institute social change fairly easily due to it's totality of belief and normally small size. How do we as a diverse society under the umbrella of a homogenous democracy effect social change to protect our children - How about just in Hawaii?

[JWFITZ]

Thank you for a thoughtful response.

I would suggest those who have placed themselves in the position of declaring themselves the vanguard of "family values" should clean up their act, and if they don't we should clean up their act for them. The crime of abuse is bad enough, but when it comes from a position of trust and authority it is greatly and disproportionately destructive.

This woman's noteworthy website is commendable, because it is one of the few voices of critique that come from within the church community. Others are far too quick to sweep things under the rug to save face. We need to be more concerned with saving kids than face.

http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/category/...he-church/

This link is to a series of prosecutions against clergy across the nation. I'd suggest one take a look. Press the "next page" button until you're sufficiently convinced there is indeed a problem.

[Jon]

LOL... without religion humans would still killing each other for food and women.. and in some places they still are.

The USSR had such a great thing when they tossed our religion huh...

JWFITZ..
How many of that 3.5 million are BS or repeats..
what you are trying to tell me is more than 1 in every 100 kids are abused...
there are around 75 million kids in the USA and if any adult that turns their back on them and a kid sticks his finger in a light socket... that is considered child abuse.

I have a friend that had his son kidnapped by the school because they found bruises on the back of his legs...
6 hours later the fessed up that they had the kid and had turned the parents in for child abuse... to bad for my friend, even though the bruises were from recess and playing on the monkey bars. He was much nicer than me, I would have filed charges on the school. But then, these are the reasons I don't have kids.


Stick with the talk about molesting and you will be better off.



Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Bob Orts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon

I have a friend that had his son kidnapped by the school because they found bruises on the back of his legs...
6 hours later the fessed up that they had the kid and had turned the parents in for child abuse... to bad for my friend, even though the bruises were from recess and playing on the monkey bars. He was much nicer than me, I would have filed charges on the school. But then, these are the reasons I don't have kids.

---

Aahh, but that's the proverbial Catch-22 we made. We the people have demanded laws that mandate schools take action when child abuse is suspected. We did this as an emotional reaction to past tragedies. Let's say your friend’s child showed signs of bruising, the school asked the child what happened and the child said they are from recess and playing on the monkey bars. The school does nothing but notes it in their records and call child welfare which will open an investigation. The next day you find out that kid is DEAD from being beaten to a pulp by the parents. Now what response would you have to the actions of the school? I guarantee you would be calling for a lynch mob and for those teachers to be hung up by their necks for failing to protect the child. In this case the child was not an abuse victim but easily under the same scenario could have been.

We want to protect our children from abuse with laws, we enact rules but we don't want the unintentional consequences of the laws that we demanded. If we are serious about child abuse we must accept that a course of action be followed when the dots are being connected and are indicating a certain picture. If it turns out to be a mistake, or the picture changes, we accept that for the good of the child, you and I may be caught up in the process and we don’t whine and moan over spilt milk.

[oink]

JWFITZ,
I don't think your stats reflect on religion one way or the other. Unfortunately, they do reflect human nature. I believe that in some cases religion is an effort to rectify some of Man's failings. Unfortunately, Man will be Man and will do it's best to screw anything up. I agree that it's a mistake to put too much faith in any man or woman. Of course it is ok to worship obama.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.