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If the Menehune were exterminated and no reparations are required for them why should the Hawaiian culture that practiced genocide be rewarded with reparations of their own?
If they were assimilated and do not require reparations as a separate entity then would not the same logic apply to the Hawaiian culture was it not also assimilated?
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Dangit, Jim. Reparations-blocker.
Roll up the red carpet!
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quote:
Originally posted by bystander
The menehune are extinct so no reparations are needed. They were exterminated or assimilated and no longer exist as a separate people.
Sounds familiar to anyone?
...we are everywhere...
...we are everywhere...
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I'm seriously interested and expect an answer from all the native / sovereign apologists
I'm neither of those, but I'll tell you why I don't believe the Menehune will get a mention in any Hawaiian Nation talks. It's extremely inconvenient and uncomfortable, and weakens the Hawaiian case for any kind of reparations if they themselves did what they accuse the US government of doing.
There is very little information about the Menehune. Why? It's inconvenient and uncomfortable to the Hawaiians in power, the Hawaiians at the U of Hawaii, and the Hawaiian Studies Department. If a grad student wanted to do their dissertation on the Menehune, do you think it would be easy for them to find an advisor to work with? If a professor applied for grant money to investigate the Menehune how easily do you think their grant would be approved?
If you asked Mililani Trask a question about the Menehune at a public forum for the Hawaiian nation, would you get a thoughtful, friendly response?
I would guess more work has been conducted on the disappearance of the Neanderthal in Europe 30,000 years ago than has been done on the far more recent disappearance of the Menehune in Hawaii. They've sequenced the Neanderthal DNA, but don't wait for a study to discover the prevalence of Menehune DNA in the native Hawaiian population.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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quote:
Originally posted by Mtviewdude
quote:
Originally posted by shockwave rider
quote:
Originally posted by MattKarma
...and it was under the Kingdom's lack of medical care/hygiene that the population dropped 10 fold or more. Machine-guns would not have deterred a mass of millions.
That is not really a fair statement. The Hawaiians were a very healthy population, until they encountered unfamiliar diseases they had never been exposed to before. With no natural immunities they died in droves, the same thing has been repeated all over the world whenever isolated populations encounter explorers and their diseases.
European sailors of this era were not exactly paragons of cleanliness and virtue, they were considered the lowest of the low by european and American society of the time. They carried all kinds of communicable diseases, including various STDs. Even the common cold is deadly to a population that has never been exposed to it, not to mention syphilis or measles. The missionaries did have somewhat better hygiene practices, but the population was already decimated by the time they got here, right after Kamehameha's reign was over.
You might want to read this paper regarding Hawaii population trends pre contact, really interesting read.
https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/b...sequence=1
TLDR; Hawaii population most likely stopped growing pre-contact ~1502 and the estimate of Hawaii population when Cook arrived was most likely around 200-250k.
The reason why i find it interesting was the population points at around
(wikipedia, i know)
1800 was about 250k
1832 was about 130k
1890 was about 89k.
What i find interesting is pre-contact to 1800 the population is relatively stables and took a hit between 1800-1832. This is the time when Kamehameha's wars on the other islands was in full swing.
I am not saying disease wasn't a huge factor, but armies were famous back then for transmitting disease and unhealthy conditions. I seem to recall reading somewhere that a lot of Kamehameha's warriors died to disease.
If you add in war and most likely famine that might cause things to really hit the fan.
Cook died in 1779 when Kamehameha was still a young soldier in his uncle's army. When Cook got to the Big Island after failing to find the NW Passage he already saw signs that the diseases his soldiers gave Hawaiian women on his first pass through Hawaii had made their way down the island chain to South Kona. There was a lot of contact with foreigners during the years while Kamehameha was conquering the islands, and they were spreading all sorts of diseases through the Hawaiian population. The wars had a big impact, but the diseases were what really hammered the population. To put it in perspective, the first native people Columbus came across in the Caribbean were all dead within 2 years of his arrival, and that was just 3 ships of sailors carrying the diseases.
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"They've sequenced the Neanderthal DNA, but don't wait for a study to discover the prevalence of Menehune DNA in the native Hawaiian population."
I propose DNA sequencing be employed to create reparations charts which implement a sliding scale to determine each individual's reparation balance (to either be billed or receive a lump sum payment, depending on net hereditary victim or perpetrator status). Complex algorithms may be necessary in many cases, but with a little diligence we can get to the bottom of this tangled genealogical mess and pay each other and ourselves our just deserts.
For example, if an individual were found to be carrying DNA from Asia, Polynesia, and Europe (for the sake of simplicity in this case let's call it Hawaiian - Chinese - English) we might find that the reparations owed by the English DNA to the Hawaiian DNA cancel out any net reparations owed to the individual in question. On the other hand, the Hawaiian DNA may owe reparations into the Menehune reparations fund creating a net loss for the individual. But then if we enter the Chinese DNA into the equation, there could be some reparation coming from the English DNA to the Chinese DNA (Opium Wars). Or, the Hawaiian DNA might owe the Chinese DNA (slaughter of early shipwrecked sailors on Hawaiian shores). If the DNA sequencing were to reveal Neanderthal DNA in the English portion of the individual, this could further complicate determining the net reparation balance of the individual.
Or, alternatively, we could just get over ourselves, get on with our own lives in the actual present, and stop trying to boss other people around according to some self-important claim of hereditary privilege.
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You were totally set for PW post of the year PM2 but then you had to add that last paragraph and ruin it all.
Cleary we need a net reparations indicator alligning with all misdeeds of past ancestors and current genetic makeup. Until this happens there will never be any chance for Aloha. Aloha is on hold unfil further notice. Additionally, Menehune and all other cultures to suffer total genocide will be awarded possesion of Hawai'i effectively reducing the population to near zero consisting of only researxh scientists and ultimately ruining the party for all of us.
"If I can't have it - no one can" *smashes toy*
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Savio should just let them squat there, recycle old photos for the flyers, and let the new owners worry about gett'n along with the mates. Isn't that how it is usually done in the 'biz?
***Still can't figure out how to spell 'car' correctly***
Every political movement is going to have opportunists who try to cash in on issues the movement raises. Problem is, when the political movement consists of nothing but these people, you no longer have a political movement but a klepto-insurgency. The FH movement has been careful to distance itself from the money/land grabbers, but maybe not as much as it should. The whole notion of a 'protected group' entitled to 'reparations' based upon a cherry picking of history that reveals that life is not fair is something that was invented in the US in the 1960s. You cannot have a society based upon equality if there are 'protected groups' who are more equal and entitled than others today because people and societies were different centuries ago. That whole 'protected group' idea should be uninvented.
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You can't fix Samsara.
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quote:
Originally posted by imagtek
Every political movement is going to have opportunists who try to cash in on issues the movement raises. Problem is, when the political movement consists of nothing but these people, you no longer have a political movement but a klepto-insurgency. The FH movement has been careful to distance itself from the money/land grabbers, but maybe not as much as it should. The whole notion of a 'protected group' entitled to 'reparations' based upon a cherry picking of history that reveals that life is not fair is something that was invented in the US in the 1960s. You cannot have a society based upon equality if there are 'protected groups' who are more equal and entitled than others today because people and societies were different centuries ago. That whole 'protected group' idea should be uninvented.
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You can't fix Samsara.
Nailed it on the head. Thank You
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