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Okay, I heard that Hawaiian is going to pick up the same exact routes that ATA had to the Islands...anyone else hear that? It was on NPR this morning.
Carrie
http://www.carrierojo.etsy.com
http://www.vintageandvelvet.blogspot.com
"Freedom has a scent like the top of a newborn baby's head..." U2
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quote:
Originally posted by woodkin
Are you sure you can't get a refund, our bank said because it is a visa debit card that it was covered by visa...
Debit cards are account ATM cards (checks) even with the Visa or MasterCard logo. They are essentially viewed as a payment by check and follow federal regulations for debit cards. These regulations spell out what a financial institution must do and what liability an issuer assumes. Although Debit Cards do not have any "failure to deliver" protection attached by regulation, nothing says a financial institution can't offer it. They can offer it through add on services from Visa or MasterCard, or they can offer it themselves. Most large financial institutions like BoA, Wells Fargo, etc may have obtained additional services or simply extend a service they didn't have to by law as a courtesy and convenience to their customers (keeps you loyal to them).
Another avenue available to consumers (and often not even known) is called the merchant liability. This is when you purchase a product (even using a debit card) from one merchant and get service delivered from another. Many people may have purchased their tickets from a travel agent or another airline. If the merchant collected the entire amount themselves, ( will show under their name as the person being paid not ATA or Aloha) they are the merchant regardless of who was providing the service. That's why those who purchased tickets to Hawaii from Southwest Airlines are getting refunds direct from Southwest. Same goes for those who booked through a travel agent and they collected the total cost under their name, those people may be getting refunds from the travel agent.
Even if a consumer called their card issuer and was told no refunds, they need to call again as refund/credit policies could have changed after the initial confusion. Many debit customers were initially told there wasn't any refunds on debit use. But when banks were able to get over the initial surprise, they issued instruction to their customer service reps to clarify what is and isn't being done.
One item to be aware of is if you used a debit or credit card to make a purchase and you traveled on that purchase, but it wasn't completed, regulations are unclear if this was a failure to deliver or if it becomes a dispute over what was delivered. Many issuers will allow a dispute for the unused portion but calculating what was and wasn’t use is another thing. Regardless, make sure you are immediately contacting the issuer and staying in touch if it's not going your way. Also the Fair Credit Billing Act only provides for a 60 day window from billing to dispute a credit card claim. Any ticket purchased and billed more than 60 days ago, is not covered under federal regulations and it's up to the issuer to resolve as they see fit.
ATA does have a list of airlines that will assist those holding ATA tickets, but make sure you understand the deadlines and conditions.
Good luck to all.
This is turning into quite a fiasco over here on Oahu.
More then 10,000 people are still stranded!
I really feel for everyone affected.
I know this is gonna affect me in the pocketbook in the long run with how much I fly. [  !]
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The more we speak up... the more they will listen.
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The Bear and I flew to Honolulu for the day on Hawaiian, and they are still valiantly trying to help out ATA and Aloha passengers trying to get home. They actually found a group cancellation on United and were able to get a bunch of people home that way. We have been Hawaiian fans for years, and their efforts to help people in this situation have cemented that.
I have an acquaintance in Atlanta who is an airline industry consultant and something of an expert on route yields. His take on the likelihood of Aloha and ATA's routes being assumed by other airlines is that it will be very selective and not comprehensive at all. The reason he gives is that the great bulk of travel to Hawaii is leisure, and leisure travelers do not buy enough full fare and first class seats to make those routes pay well in a high fuel cost environment. He does not expect the big five (American, Delta, United, Northwest, and Continental) to pick up any of the slack, and thinks that they will instead use the shortfall in available seats to be able to sell fewer heavily discounted tickets. Another reason for the big five to keep their current capacity to Hawaii is the fact that they have committed practically all their available trans-oceanic aircraft to the far more lucrative European and Asian markets.
Hawaiian has a limited ability to ramp up its mainland service due to lack of aircraft. (Interisland service on Hawaiian is being increased by extending new flights later into the evenings for the most part.) They do have a big order pending with Airbus for some great new widebodied planes, but the earliest those will be ready is two to three years out. Of course they might be able to lease some widebodies somewhere in the meantime, and I hope they do.
As far a non-stop service from Hilo to the mainland . . . don't hold your breath. After initial high load factors on ATA that caused a larger plane (still narrow-body) to be used, demand fell back and service was cut back from daily to several times a week, and at one point they were only flying once or twice a week. They were supposed to increase frequency this summer, but we all know what happened.
The State of Hawaii needs to do some serious lobbying with the airlines and hope that some discount or new airlines such as Virgin enter the market. Otherwise, there will be hard times in the tourist industry.
Cheers,
Jerry
And another Airlines goes Bellyup:
SKYBUS Airlines Inc., a U.S. low- fare carrier that started operations less than a year ago, stopped service today, the third airline to shut down this week as fuel costs soared and the economy slowed.
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The more we speak up... the more they will listen.
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"Hawaiian has a limited ability to ramp up its mainland service due to lack of aircraft. Inter Island service on Hawaiian is being increased by extending new flights later into the evenings for the most part."
My take is:
There are a lot of aircraft available, ata just put ten on the market, aloha released a dozen or so today (canceled the lease) Problem is there is no cash to finance them in the economic system. That will delay expansion or new carriers into the routes, although fuel is up, leasing costs for aircraft down due to the "low" interest rate, helping the model a bit. Problem is no one has the cash, and after last week and two failures. At 25 million for a "beater" and a 100 or so for a nice one and 200 or so for a new one ("low cost" 737-700 series ) the chances of raising enough capital from the banks and their leasing companies are zilch.
In the end a 737 - 700 burns as much fuel per person, per mile as 4 people in a vw rabbit (about the same seat room - grin) ... the right players, with the right aircraft can make money on these routes, given financing and a shot at the popular gates
lets keep our fingers crossed
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If Hawaiian could find a good deal on some B767 aircraft or manage to get early delivery or leases from Airbus, they could take better advantage of the opportunity presented by ATA and Aloha ceasing business. (So far, they seem to be the only company interested in taking up the slack.) Unfortunately the planes now available from those two companies are all of narrowbody types very different from what Hawaiian now flies. They would have to start from scratch by either hiring or retraining pilots, mechanics, and even flight attendants to deal with a new aircraft type. In fact, their pilot union almost derailed the Airbus order over seniority and work rule issues related to the new planes before an agreement was reached. It would make more sense for them to either lease a few more 767s or get into the Airbus game early than to get a bunch of 737s and 757s that don't fit their business model. Of course there are plenty of Aloha pilots, mechanics, and flight attendants who would love to operate their former aircraft for Hawaiian, but Hawaiian would have already bought out Aloha if that's what they wanted to do.
Cheers,
Jerry
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Interesting read here. http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2003/0328.htm
If the aviation market was fully open, Aloha and ATA might have been able to find suitors overseas. But no more than 25% foreign ownership is currently allowed in the airline industry. When Citigroup was hit hard by the subprime mess last year, they got help from all over the world, including a prince from Saudi Arabia.
With US dollar going weak against almost every foreign currency, Aloha and ATA should've been a steal for foreign investors. When I fly on foreign airlines, I find their level of service way better than that of US carriers. No need to deal with grumpy flight attendants, either! Looks like the FAA is more focused on flushing down tax payers money. What a joke!
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Depending on the ata 757 cockpit configuration, it may make sense for Hawaiian to do a short term lease, The 767,757 are very similar - if the cockpits are configured the same way, the 757 would fit nicely in the fleet and the smaller gates and runways. A 12-24 month lease will tide them over until the scarebuses arrive.
The key again, is getting a lender to fund the lease(s). Other than sales to China the market for airliners is looking pretty grim in the months ahead...
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