Will the new flow put an end to more geothermal?

[OnoOno]

Yes, if you are thinking in the micro and only of yourself, but in the whole, Energy - Nuclear, Solar, Fossil, Geo, Wind etc., is the great liberator, the great enabler, the great uplifter

I would suspect that the net product of your life, spent sans energy, doesn't amount to a lot. After all, there is only so much energy in your musculature. I bet I could drill 100'x of more holes in wood, metal, plastic etc., in a productive and meaningful manner, with an electric or portable battery-powered drill, than you could with a brace and bit.

Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!

[Rob Tucker]

Electricity is my good friend.

[snorkle]

I see your point Waken. We all pick our masters.

Compare it to food production. Does the convenience of wonderbread and iceburg lettuce win out over baking and growing your own food?

It's a personal decision.



Brace and bit? Nice to have one around, but I prefer a cordless, rechargible. No HELCO necessary. I never mentioned being against energy. Just Grid Transmitted energy. It's an archaic way to move power that serves the Utility Company more than the consumer.

[Johnd]

Puna lover, Iceland has geothermal plants all over the place and they have a lot of volcanic activity. Geothermal is here to stay and in my opinion it will be developed further. I am afraid that perhaps it will end up pushing residents out of Puna...really afraid of that.

jdo

[OnoOno]

Baking, in an oven built by what, powered by what, smelted by what, rolled, shaped, stamped, machined, molded, painted by what? Agrarian self sufficiency is the fast road to nowhereville. I am talking big picture, more than just household use. Steel, brick, concrete, fuels, plastics, aluminum all use energy. Obviously, you are free to live in what ever era you wish, from stone, through copper, bronze, iron, silicon etc., but energy will take you farther, faster, safer than you're own muscles.

As far as the grid, do you have even an inkling of a substitute that will power the farms, the plants, the factories, homes, mills etc., of our civilization? The grid is great, use it every day, all day, and can't imagine a life without it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by snorkle

I see your point Waken. We all pick our masters.

Compare it to food production. Does the convenience of wonderbread and iceburg lettuce win out over baking and growing your own food?

It's a personal decision.



Brace and bit? Nice to have one around, but I prefer a cordless, rechargible. No HELCO necessary. I never mentioned being against energy. Just Grid Transmitted energy. It's an archaic way to move power that serves the Utility Company more than the consumer.

---

Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!

[snorkle]

Please forgive me. It must be my inability to express myself, but you guys just aren't understanding what I'm saying.

I'm totally for energy. I'm plugged into new technology.

I'm against continued use of obsolete energy(19th century grid system); especially when it exists to perpetuate an energy monopoly.

Once again; The future is going to bring micro grids, and home power technology.

Technology analogy;

Q; Where on earth would you get a prosthetic hand without the giant medical manufacturing industry?

A; Why, in the Rec room, printed on your 3D printer; powered by your home biodiesel generator, on fuel made in the garage.

[wakan]

snorkle--

I'm pretty sure nobody wants to give up on having energy at their disposal. But if the aim is to be independent, where do you get that 3-D printer (and the raw materials to feed into it)? And where do you get that noisy diesel generator to supply your power from? And where do you get the recycled vegetable oils to make your bio-diesel from? And unless the bio-diesel that you mix up in you garage is pretty well refined (which is difficult in a garage), you may be producing more particulates and more hydrocarbons than from ordinary diesel. OH yeah, and will you be making your own ethanol or methanol which is necessary for the production of bio-diesel?

My point is that you can't really disentangle yourself from the world-at-large without seriously compromising the comfortable lifestyle that has come with progress. I know all kinds of people in lower Puna who "pretend" to be self sufficient, but very few of them actually come close to it--and I wouldn't want to live the lifestyle of those that do get close. All the off-grid hippies that I know shop at Home Depot and Walmart, they buy most of their food from the natural food stores (at higher prices), they own (with very few exceptions) gas powered vehicles, and they get a lot of packages from Babylon via UPS and FedEx.

That off-grid lifestyle requires perhaps even more gadgets than life on the grid. And those big box stores, the pharmacies, the Post Office, the restaurants, the banks, (and even the natural food stores) aren't gonna be run by fuel cells anytime (if ever) in the near future.

I'm not trying to rattle your cage or dampen your enthusiasm for decentralized energy sources, and I certainly don't think that the big energy producers are any friends of the people. But the trend towards greater efficiency and convenience, in my opinion, still lies with a grid that is powered by renewable resources--especially solar-thermal, wind (to some degree), a new generation of clean nuclear, and--dare I say it--geothermal.

[snorkle]

Where did I say I wanted to disentangle myself from the world at large?
How is a Micro grid "off the grid"? I'm just against centralized power. Think of it as centralized power failure. Tens of thousands without power here recently. Did you notice?

There are two reasons, and two reasons only that HELCO maintains an archaic and costly grid; One is that we pay for it, and two is they have complete control.

There was a good segment on NPR this week about mainland power companies investigating the benefits of micro grids.

Technology is advancing exponentially. We will do much better than a tangle of 19th century tree catching spaghetti wires, even though they can be nice to look at(not).

You are the guys that a hundred years ago railed against those "new fangled" automobiles. "Where you gonna drive em, Clem? They ain't no roads!"

[OnoOno]

As I offered earlier, in micro, perhaps. But who is going to manufacture (after design etc.) the printer, and produce and distribute the equipment and "ink", or make the means of delivery. What about the equipment to make bio-diesel, and where are you going to get the raw materials. It seems like a tent is about all you'll be able to manage, or perhaps a small shack, sans the grid and products made by use of the grid.

What is it that, in your opinion, makes the grid obsolete? Bear in mind that the sort of current delivered to a house (or tent) is a pittance compared to that which is delivered to the institutions of industry that make all the tools, raw materials

quote:

---

Originally posted by snorkle

Please forgive me. It must be my inability to express myself, but you guys just aren't understanding what I'm saying.

I'm totally for energy. I'm plugged into new technology.

I'm against continued use of obsolete energy(19th century grid system); especially when it exists to perpetuate an energy monopoly.

Once again; The future is going to bring micro grids, and home power technology.

Technology analogy;

Q; Where on earth would you get a prosthetic hand without the giant medical manufacturing industry?

A; Why, in the Rec room, printed on your 3D printer; powered by your home biodiesel generator, on fuel made in the garage.

---

Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!

[punalvr]

I just do not think that basics, such as electricity, water and food, should be so expensive, or taxed, or for profit.
I believe on self sustainability. I made an investment of about 20 grand on my solar system.
Batteries last about eight years. It has been 15 years.
So 250 a month on Helco X 12mths X 15 years= 45.000. and you are still dependent.
And I am not a Socialist, neither a Capitalist anymore..


punalvr