Blue Hawaiian

[mgeary]

KathyH said:

quote:

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...It doesn't bother me that tourists take the flights in ignorance of the situation on the ground.

It does bother me that anyone who knows the situation on the ground would blow it off and go for the ride anyway. And then to plan to live here amongst the same people whose home space you don't respect enough to stay on the ground. I don't understand how that gets rationalized...

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Actually, Kathy, I didn't know there was an issue with helicopters until Thunderfoot started the "pesky helicopter" thread on 9/29/07. My helicopter flight was on 7/2/07, so at that time I was actually an ignorant tourist.

More importantly than that, because I reserve the right to fly with full knowledge in the future, you are mis-directing your frustrations at me. I am simply the (honest) voice of a tourist. There are tens of thousands of tourists who will come from all over the world next year to fly in a helicopter on the Big Island, and hardly any of them will ever know anything about Puna, Punatics, or your frustrations. Whether I cancel my next flight out of a guilty conscience or not will not greatly affect your happiness. The tourists will come in their thousands, and they will fly. At least, on my behalf, I am taking the time and energy to find out something about Puna, Punatics, and engage in a meaningful dialogue.

You can be angry at me all you want, but the people who can actually do something for you are represented by Darl Evans, who is here and listening. Talk to him, meet with him, help him understand your worries. Listen to him and his concerns, too. I don't know him from Adam, but I suspect he might just be a regular Joe, with a wife and kids that he's trying to make a decent living for. He might also live in Puna, for all we know. He is not going to just roll up his career and start over somewhere else, lightly.

At any rate, Kathy, I am willing to accept your anger, and I don't feel like you've been rude. I understand that you are frustrated, and you're honestly venting your feelings. I am just not the right person to help you. Helicopter tour operators, tourist agents, group bookers, cruise ship entertainment directors, whoever, they are the ones, besides the regulating agency, the FAA, who can really do something to help you.

Aloha to you, Kathy.

Darl: Just because I support helicopter flights over the volcano, do not take that as unqualified, unconditional support of the helicopter tourism industry. Be warned that I expect you and your competitors to follow the flight regulations to the letter of the law. If/when I am on the Big Island, I'll be watching your activities, and I'll not be afraid to report a violation if I see one. The next time I charter a flight, you can be certain that I will choose Blue Hawaiian, just to watch the altimeter. And yes, I do know which one's the altimeter.

How do I know?

Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 14:38:59

[mgeary]

DanielP said:

quote:

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Perhaps the Industry leaders might consider being pro-active in this issue and reach out to the community and to adopt procedures that their neighbors can live with?

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Uh, hello? Did you read the first post of this thread? Who do you think is being pro-active and reaching out, and what is his stated purpose?

Darl: Just because I support helicopter flights over the volcano, do not take that as unqualified, unconditional support of the helicopter tourism industry. Be warned that I expect you and your competitors to follow the flight regulations to the letter of the law. If/when I am on the Big Island, I'll be watching your activities, and I'll not be afraid to report a violation if I see one. The next time I charter a flight, you can be certain that I will choose Blue Hawaiian, just to watch the altimeter. And yes, I do know which one's the altimeter.

How do I know?

Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 14:39:30

[HADave]

A little research shows:

For the conventional helicopter, there are two fundamental systems that contribute to the generation of near-field and far-field noise, the main rotor and the tail rotor. Each rotor emits unique and recognizable sounds due to its highly individualized operating condition. Engine noise is typically of secondary significance.

A helicopter main rotor generates primarily low frequency noise and, in certain operating regimes, high amplitude low-to-mid-frequency noise modulated at the blade passage frequency. The low frequency rotor noise is made up of basic loading noise and broadband turbulence noise, each a function of lift and rotational speed. These sources are present in any lifting rotor.

Perhaps some areas of ordinance should be laid out to see how Blue Hawaiian or others respond. It is my quess that Darl is on a fishing expedition here in Puna and where better to cast a line than Punaweb. What would you're response be to such particulars such as;





Minimum operational altitudes should be established for district helicopter over-flights.

FAA regulations/rules should authorize local governments to restrict or to forbid placement of helicopter launching/landing facilities, and to place flight restrictions on some helicopter operations.

Sight-seeing flights over densely settled areas should be forbidden or severely limited. The FAA should allow the local jurisdiction to restrict or forbid such flights.

The FAA should adopt a rule which would allow local police, fire and highway patrol agencies to place a flashing blue light on a helicopter's underbelly. This would signal residents below that the helicopter is in public service, not sight-seeing, media or unnecessary operations. This key piece of information would help residents below assess the nature of the helicopter noise, and perhaps reduce the number of unnecessary complaints.

The FAA should devise and implement new noise standards for helicopters. A phase-out program for older models should be put in place. There should be a definite phase out time limit on all Stage 2 helicopters.

Establish minimum altitudes over populated areas. Clearly a minimum altitude of at least 1500 ft. AGL should be established over populated urban areas. The lack of minimums create a horrendous noise problem for residents on the ground. The hope of "self-regulation" by the helicopter industry has proven to be a failure. The FAA must step in an resolved this issue.

Larger N numbers must be required on helicopters. While many media outlets paint large graphics or station call signs on their helicopters, they should be required to paint large N numbers on them as well. This would enable people on the ground to readily identify disturbing helicopter operations

Police, fire and other emergency helicopters should be required to adhere to high minimums when not in active service. This would prevent, for example, a police helicopter from flying low when returning to the heliport, after it has completed its assignment.

Limits must be placed upon the frequency of sight-seeing and tourist helicopter operations over urban areas. In some communities, sight-seeing helicopters fly the same routes repeatedly every ten or fifteen minutes. This must be stopped, regulated or severely limited.

Curfews should be established to control industry excesses. Unless a sound justification is made for an exception, a curfew should be established for helicopters operating over populated areas.

Personally I stand opposed to this traffic as there is plenty of other less offensive means of viewing lava that have little or no impact on people, agriculture or wildlife.

Aloha HADave

[Bob Orts]

HADave, Those are excellent suggestion. The issue that always comes up is how does the FAA establish such rules within the legal context of their authority? Right now they can’t. In Hawaii, they can enact (just like anywhere in the US) temporary flight restrictions and rules, but they can and must be temporary. Otherwise they must set one standard for all air operations within the US.

The suggestion of the "N" number is good but has to apply to all aircraft registered in the US since they are not like car license plates, individually issued by the states, they are a national license plate.

The issue of the lights is good, but there already are required markings for lights based on international aviation law, the US is prohibited from setting such additional standards.

The issue of State control can't be done because it's illegal. The FAA can not give the States control over the public airspace for aircraft, the Supreme Court already ruled on that.

In the thread "We the People" what we're looking at is what CAN be done, how, by whom and the best way to do it. But in that thread we've discovering that steps 1, 2 & 3 may not have been done and going back to the very beginning just may be the best option. Your thoughts would be a tremendous help.

[HADave]

Perhaps, Bob, from a local standpoint a noise ordinance might be enough to force an action by these tour companies or concious pilots, like Darl that is favorably accepted by the populas. Perhaps a chess move that might eventually opened a door to some legislation that might impower the FAA to set new standards nation wide with respect to N numbers. If these id's were more visible ground control might be more effective. I'm seeing neighborhood watch groups making good spotters for violating birds.

I am curious though and this is a question for Darl, exactly how many different helicopter models are there flying the friendly skies of Puna. More specifically the number of 5 rotor machines versus the number of more noisey 3 rotor machines.

It seems after reading everyones post the first concern is noise so perhaps at the very least and Bob correct me if my thinking is still off-base that legislation permitting the FAA to impose a phase out program for older and more noisey models.

I suspect from my limited research that this is a problem larger than meets the eye Puna is not the only place with noisey helicopters..

I would also think that pilots would get on board this issue as newer 5 rotor models are not only quieter but safer, wouldn't you agree Darl?

HADave

[mgeary]

The regulatory body is the FAA.
They have a National Parks Overflights Advisory Group - Aviation Rulemaking Committee (NPOAG ARC).
There are two vacancies on that committee which are allocated to representatives for Environmental Concerns.
The deadline for submitting a request to be on that committee is December 5th, 2007, by mail or e-mail. Contact:

Barry Brayer,
AWP–1SP,
Special Programs Staff,
Federal Aviation Administration,
Western-Pacific Region Headquarters,
P.O. Box 92007, Los Angeles, CA 90009–2007,
telephone: (310) 725–3800,
e-mail: Barry.Brayer@faa.gov

or

Karen Trevino,
National Park Service,
Natural Sounds Program,
1201 Oakridge Dr., Suite 100,
Fort Collins, CO 80525,
telephone (970) 225–3563,
e-mail:
karen_Trevino@nps.gov

I got this from the FAA website: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/head...hts_group/

How do I know?

Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 17:35:30

[PunaLover]

mgeary
yea, well when you get here................

I'll show you my pics from several trips to the "birth of earth", channel 9 KGMB, weatherwatchers, it's published.

Other than that I can show hundreds of pictures of choppers and planes over my air space.

Was sharing a bottle of wine with mt friend Lola, and reminising on how things were. And the punaweb came up and all the buzz about and from people who don't even live here yet.
I don't have a problem with that.
But when those who don't live here, have not experienced that which those of us who have, really go off with opinions that have no basis from island living at all is what starts to make me ask, what?
U 4 real?
Not to vere off again but hey full disclousure, Puna is a economically depressed area, like the Appilacians, only with new carpetbaggers movin in with thier big trucks and atv's, that are gonna tear up the beauty others seem to just fly over.
But no worry, mgeary, when you move here you'll be singin a different tune. aloha

[missydog1]

hey mgeary,
I much appreciate your hearing my feelings about this and responding calmly.

I myself am not a believer in getting the system to work when it is big and unwieldy. Other people have faith in following the due channels and I say good for them.

Plenty of people moved to Puna who are not the types who deal well with making government work for them by following official guidelines. There needs to be room for all approaches I think.

You mention how few visitors know about Punatics and their issues. So very true.

I believe strongly that the best way to curtail annoying or irresponsible tour operations is to get people to vote with their wallets. Educate people and get them to patronize responsible operators.

Who would have thought in the beginning that people would stop eating certain types of tuna because of dolphins? I'm old enough to remember -- at first the people willing to pay more for a can was few, but eventually the idea caught on. The guilt.

Now makes economic sense to sell dolphin safe tuna because people buy it and boycott the other kinds.

Here on the island, tour operators that chase dolphins get a bad rap to tourists from some people. So why not tour companies that fly too low over people's property?

Instead of spending endless hours writing letters and shooting video, is it illegal to get a group of protesters with signs to stand along the airport road asking people to boycott tour operators who fly under 1500 feet over residential neighborhoods? Get a group of kids out there saying, ______ Helicopters buzz our house, please don't go ... etc..

Then it would be on the news, and more visitors would learn of the controversy, and some might even out of conscience ask the tours if they are the "bad guys" the protesters are talking about, when they call to book.

Then it becomes "PC" if a tour company can advertise that they don't fly low over homes. Then that company gets more business.

Protests that could affect tourism would also make the County sit up and pay attention, get rid of the negative publicity.

I suppose I think "bad press" is more effective in the free market than courting legislators, or at least both avenues are worth a shot.

[loffelkopffl]

so you can't fly over the ocean because you might crash? you've got to be kidding?

[PunaLover]

Cathy
you can pickett Blue Hawaiian as they are located on airport property you may find yourself in Federal lockup.
This is one of those serenity prayer things.
Of the things you'd like to change but probaly won't.
The frogs, the lava, the mold you'll never do anything about.
But the choppers and Boom boxes someone has a hand on controling them, they can be corrected.