Big Island Charter schools possible closure

[puna haku]

Bob, first there are two sets of zoning codes: County and State. State zoning designation trumps County. One must comply with both. So that's why you need to read Hawaii Revised Statues - it bars schools in State Land Agricultural even if it's zoned acceptable to the County. Secondly, the Federal Law that created charter schools was designed to give charter schools special exemptions. The reason is the Federal gov't recognizes the expense, challenges and time requirement for starting a full fledged DOE school. If they didn't provide exception, there would be no charter school. Hawaii provided those exceptions and the DOE lobbied the legislature to strike it and they did. The idea was to create small community based schools. As I said, the County and the State did recognize charter school autonomy at first. Even Chris Yuen printed a letter to all of the charter schools stating that the special permit process was not required in State Land Agricultural district. And yes they have since changed their minds, and yes it has wound up in court. Now the charters have to spend educational funds to hire attorney's because they did change their mind.

However all schools need to meet health and safety standards. The problem is that the Hawaii State and County government is requiring charter schools live up to same standards as a fully funded DOE school and without the funding. Why should a one classroom school live up to the same requirements of a full fledged DOE campus?

As far as your developer analogy doesn't jive but let's turn it around. Let's say the County now requires developers that build residential make their homes fully compatible with American's with Disability Act. They require it with County and State projects, so your homes must now do the same. So, now your home must have a ramp, 36" minimum openings, a 5' turnaround area in bathroom, grab bars around the walls, door levers instead of knobs, electrical outlets at least 14" off the ground, no slope more than 8 degrees, all cabinets, sinks, light switches and appliances accessible from a wheelchair, the list goes on and on. Why should you be able to build a home that's not up to the same standard--I mean who are you? And if you don't think this has been proposed you are seriously mistaken.

What the charter schools are asking is for are a set of health and safety standards acceptable for small community based school. The Federal act that created charter schools specifically gave them autonomy, where the local school boards made sure they meet federal health and safety standards for schools. What is going on here is the State is using their stringent requirements to close charter schools and force the students into DOE funded schools. Hawaii did originally recognize the charter school autonomy and the DOE forced the legislatures to strike those sections from Hawaii Revised Statues. It's there for the reading if you look. No one ever said they didn't have to meet health and safety standards, it was just to which standards and who oversees them. The reason is obvious - follow the money.

-Puna Haku

[Bob Orts]

Puna Haku, Thanks for the info. I'm still confused over the issues. Let's see if we can figure out where it's going astray.

First, the issue over autonomy. What I've been told by everyone, including a federal DOE official is federal regulations has nothing to do with local code compliance of the physical facilities or zoning, that's the exclusive domain of the State, County or City where the school is located. They say nothing in any federal regulations has ever exempted Charter Schools from local zoning, building, fire or safety codes. It’s absolutely not a federal issue. The federal governed does have certain mandatory items with school buildings but it in no way removes the local government’s ability to regulate zoning or facility code issues. They said it’s a completely false argument.

Second; issues over zoning are a long standing misconception by people. According to a Hawaii State official, state owned land is one thing and land within a county is another. Private land within a county agricultural zoning is private land under county planning control. Although the State does have certain items that do impact or supersede County regulations, they are not your normal zoning/building issues as in this case. The crux of this is a non-conforming operation operating without the proper legal requirements. It’s compounded because the operation was not seeking a special use permit to operate; they started operating without that permit.

Cost of the special permit. According to my BIL, the cost to obtain a special use permit on the BI is not that big a deal. He believes this issue is less about the actual special use permit, but an issue that the physical facility is so inadequate for school operations, that a special use permit has to be denied. He also said that many of the items someone quoted as required for a special use permit are not always required. He looked at this and simple said the physical facility and attitude of the school is the problems. The zoning is just one of the items that are intertwined in all their problems so it gets the focus of attention.

Now, my BIL did say that there should be some consideration for the small community aspect of the school. What’s required for a large school should be proportionately adjusted for the smaller school. But that’s an issue generally ironed out in the planning stages. What he said went wrong was starting without planning ahead and now expects special treatment. They should have been working on this before the first student entered the class but went about this backwards and brought all this on themselves.

As for funding, I have to say there are only two types of schools, public and private. Charter schools are private schools on welfare. As my BIL stated, if they didn’t have the funds to do the preplanning, that’s their problem, nobody else’s. They knew what they were getting into (or should had) so to blame the funding is asinine.

As for your analogy of ADA requirements for private homes, please, that’s not even in the same ballpark of analogies. But let’s look at ADA. If I’m opening a business and ADA requirements comes into play, I have to do it. I can’t complain that I don’t have money, that’s nobody's problem but mine.

I think people are trying too hard to make the school look like the victim and using anything they can find to throw up as a smoke screen hoping nobody checks. Guess what, I checked.

One thing my BIL did raise was to the people this is just about a poor struggling school, but to a developer and their lawyers, it's a gold mine!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Orts
As for funding, I have to say there are only two types of schools, public and private. Charter schools are private schools on welfare. As my BIL stated, if they didn’t have the funds to do the preplanning, that’s their problem, nobody else’s. They knew what they were getting into (or should had) so to blame the funding is asinine....

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Bob, I think you misunderstand the charter school concept and how they are funded here in Hawaii.

Please look at this

Charter schools are a part of the Hawaii Department of Education.[^]

[Punamom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Orts

My issue is that WOL decided to open a school, they picked a location, they started school at that location, they operated the school at that location, and they had children on-site. But, they did nothing before operating to make the place legal. There was absolutely no community contact other than trying to get students. They did this like a thief in the night.

"SHUT THEM DOWN!"
That's the phrase I'm using in writing to everyone in any elected or appointed position regarding their operation. If they don't, the County, its taxpayers, and all residents can expect developers to seize this for their own good. I showed this to my brother-in-law and he said if the County does not act, and let's it go, they have opened the doors for developer lawsuits over zoning.

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hhhhmmmm! makes sense now, forgive me, maliciousness is really,really hard for me to comprehend. It is my hope your only speaking from fear and nothing else.

I would be interested in knowing how you think a
developer would be able to exploit the situation? Or is that the only thing you can think of to get folks against WOL. Maybe your brother-in-laws name is Mr.Rosenberg or Maybe its Mr.Katz.[}]
It appears the more you blog, the more it seems you have a special interest......[}] so to speak, not very surprising[B)] just revealing.

For someone with such a strong opinion you have very little accurate information. But I will explain, not that it's for you necessarily, but some folks may be interested.

As far as the schools in HPP go;

We obtained off the record advice from a co. official, he also told us about HRS 302A-1184 which basically says County zoning codes do not apply to Charter schools.

Notified neighbors within the required 300 ft, we even notified a few farther away that we knew personally.

Conformed to the health and safety codes with help from many contractor Dads/community members,families.

We, as well as the other owners have been working on the special permits from the beginning.

Charter School Review Panel asked Chris Yuen to follow up on a complaint.

The appeals process which we filed for, allows you to continue operating until the appeals decision.

Special permits will be applied for, before the hearing date.[]

Charter School Review Panel calls Fire Marshall, inspection done.
Said our schools need a catchment valve for fire hose hookup and fire safety doors/handles on main exits.

Charter School Review Panel calls Building Division, cease and desist order issued for lack of permits to operate a school.

Charter School Review Panel says schools have to move to a commercial location or WOL will lose their charter.


This thread is beginning to turn into that catty, immature, negative, hurtful one that was deleted. So I'm out. But guess what, nobody really cares, write all the letters you want on your private school dollars, nobody cares.[]
Blessings

[Bob Orts]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You got off the record advice from a co. official who told you that HRS 302A-1184 does not apply to Charter schools. Is that correct? Did that official happen to mention that HRS 301A-1184 applies to nobody because it was repealed a couple of years ago? You notified neighbors within the required 300-ft, and you even notified a few farther away that was personally known. I wonder how many properties were in that 300’ notification zone?

You said that you as well as the other owners have been working on the special permits from the beginning. But you also said Special Use permits would be applied for, before the hearing date. So is that like driving a car while you and your family discuss getting drivers license? Did you actually complete and file the application for the special use permit?

You stated that the Charter School Review Panel called the Building Division and they issued a Cease and Desist order based on a lack of permits to operate a school. If that’s correct, I don’t get your argument. You didn’t have the permit, you got caught, and you got shut down. That’s the process, as it should apply to everyone.

If a bar opened without a permit in defiance of county zoning regulations next to your house, are you saying they get to stay open while they attempt to apply for zoning permits or are they shut down until they get one?
If a Rendering plant opened up in defiance of county zoning regulations next to your house, are you saying they should be allowed to stay open while they attempt to apply for the permits or are they to be shut down until they get one?
If someone on the property next to you opens up a halfway house for child sex offenders without going through the proper permit and zoning requirements, should they be allowed to stay open while they try to get a permit, or should they be shut down for lack of proper permits?
If Whelbrator is building a demonstration incinerator smack in the heart of HPP which is in violation of county zoning, should they be allowed to continue while they try to get permits or should they be shut down?

Now, I have no idea who these Rosenberg or Katz are, and as for my BIL, his job, his existence, is finding every tiny mistake government makes and exploit it for the benefit of his paying developer clients. Have you ever attended hearings where one of these developer attorneys turn a simple variance given to a property owner to construct a grassy dog run within the setback into a legal challenge to successfully argue the tearing down of a historical neighborhood to build a golf course? I have a tendency to respect his words of caution especially having seen him in action. Don’t underestimate what turning a blind eye to open defiance of zoning can lead too.

[Bob Orts]

Now Damon, do you think Hawaii's way of handling charter schools is really any different than the way it's set up in other areas. There is nothing unique (except for the county versus city school board concept) about Hawaii’s Charter Schools. And what you showed me really shows and explains nothing.
But you are good at hunting down government items related to stuff so here's one for you.

In the court challenges to government funded educational vouchers for private schools, the long held argument is that taxpayer funds should not be used for private schools because they are private and parents elect to not send their children to the traditional public schools. However the courts have been increasingly faced with a firm counter argument that traditional private schools can not be legally prohibited from getting taxpayer monies under educational vouchers because……… What has caused this legal shifting of the judicial system and resulting in the public school education system having to issue vouchers to private schools?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Orts

... What has caused this legal shifting of the judicial system and resulting in the public school education system having to issue vouchers to private schools?

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Too easy Bob[]

NCLB

See priority #5

[oink]

Bob,
You seem to have the experience and a talent for negotiating the type of legal and bureaucratic hoops the school needs to jump through. Many well intentioned people don't share your talent or experience. It appears that the creation of the school was a well intentioned attempt to fill an acute need. You could exhibit your interest and compassion in the Puna community by assisting these residents in their otherwise worthwhile endeavor. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to the community to assist them in the effort despite their misguided errors, than to crush the well intentioned attempt to provide a quality educational experience?

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[Menehune]

Whew! It's getting hot in here! [!]

How close are we to Madame Pele's latest show. [}]

puna haku - enjoyed your posts - mild insight. [|)]

Bob Orts - enjoyed your posts - spicy challenge. [^]

Damon - this (http://www.hawaii.edu/hepc/pdf/Reports/C...s_2004.pdf) was written BY the charter schools - maybe a little biased? []

Also - Bob Orts post and Damon's reply "Too easy Bob NCLB See priority #5" have gone over my head BIG time (nothing new - but I'm trying). [?]

Let's see now - "well intentioned" - I paraphrase " The road to hell is paved with good intentions" (I know I'm halfway down that road)! []
OR "Merely intending to do good, without actually doing it, is of no value." [V]
http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/roadtohellis.html

Damn - somebody pass me the TUMS! []

[aikahimomma]

Oink...fabulous idea