TMT construction begins Monday 15 July

[Punatic007]

Snorkle, there is absolutely no comparison btwn Vietnam and the Mauna Kea Observatories. This is where the great travesty lies, picking the wrong target.

A lose-lose for everyone.

[MarkP]

I came across this paragraph in a bit on reddit about Trump's racism:

"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."

Replace anti-Semite with anti-TMT and it is still relevant. There is a certain giddiness about telling everyone else to go shove it. Making sense is not the objective at least for some. NOT making sense and getting away with it is its own reward.

[ironyak]

I hope reddit at least gave credit to John-Paul Sartre, from whom the quote is taken.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Sartre

While there is some of that at play on both sides (basically disingenuous arguers), to characterize everyone on one side as behaving so is grossly oversimplifying and stereotyping (gasp, bless my delicate sensibilities). But it is so much easier to demonize the opposition than address the issues.

[macuu222]

Are the employees that work for the observatories that can't get up to the mountain to do their jobs because of the blockade still getting paid?

[kalakoa]

Mostly just "they". It suggests condescending superiority.

These "they" have set themselves apart and apparently believe their problems are far more important than anyone else's.

On the plus side, they've clearly established that there is no rule of law in Hawaii.

[ironyak]

macuu222 - Are the employees that work for the observatories that can't get up to the mountain to do their jobs because of the blockade still getting paid?

HTH mentions that at least for some observatories, most workers are doing prep and paper work instead of regular jobs. Also notes the missed opportunities such as once-in-a-lifetime transit of an exoplanet.

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/201...elescopes/

[Kaimana]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomK

I suggest people look up the history of Galileo and Copernicus. Despite their scientific discoveries, both were mistreated by the catholic church who condemned them and at least in the case of Copernicus, burned his books. Galileo was forced to abandon his research because it contradicted the church's teachings.

These are events that happened in the 16th and 17th century. We now have protestors telling astronomers that they cannot go to Mauna Kea to carry out their research.

It's happening again in the 21st century. How on earth did we get to this point again, hundreds of years later?

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Nobody is disputing the science though. We are tired of the mismanagement of the mountain and the disrespect of our culture.

[kalakoa]

We are tired of the mismanagement of the mountain and the disrespect of our culture.

Those problems aren't unique to an ethnicity, nor will continued interference with TMT solve them.

[rainyjim]

How is the TMT mismanagement of the mountain. Please, someone explain it to me.

How is the TMT disrespecting any culture?

[riversnout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaimana
Nobody is disputing the science though.

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It was never about science, just ask the Governor.

https://imgur.com/jkgbM1i