Champagne Pond - Best solutions?

[Bob Orts]

This problem is solved. If anything was done within the last 5 years that involved HEPA, you can now go back and demand a full and complete environmental review for each and every one of those projects. Don’t let anyone tell you its not required. Don’t let anyone tell you that it’s grandfather. The fact is, no state agency had the power to dismiss the need for a complete and full environmental study just because they didn’t think a project or an associated portion of a total project would create an environmental impact. If anyone says otherwise, refer to Hawaii Supreme Court Case # 27407. I knew that case would come in handy!

[wyatt]

Well we decided to take a guest to Champagne
Pond today. We got there and there was about 7 of us. Very quiet. I decided to walk the shoreline as I have in the past when we rented there. I could not believe the amount of toilet paper mounds I saw. Most near small palm trees. Some a little distance from former camp fires. Yuke.
Latter in the day the Kapohokine tours came by. Four came while we were there.
I found them to be pleasant, and they did clean up after themselves.
I can see how easy it is to feel intruded on. It went from 7 people to ? people.
But it is open to the public.
Mind you there was only two tour vehicles at a time.

I spoke with a driver named April. I found her to be pleasant and well informed. We spent some time talking.
She spoke very highly of their company and seemed to enjoy her job. She has lived her all
here life. Years ago I was a tourist here once and took the tour bus from Hell. I think I would have enjoyed a tour like Kapohokine.

From todays experience, I see the main problem
as the campers.

Just my $.02

Aloha
Wyatt









Edited by - wyatt on 11/01/2007 17:10:26

Edited by - wyatt on 11/01/2007 17:11:20

[realitycheck]

Yes, all the roads inside the gate, and the main road from the highway to the gate, were jointly deeded to the KBCA lotowners by the subdivision developers in the '50s. They all have to pay dues to keep them maintained. The gate itself was an inheritance from the previous generation of lotowners. One particular lotowner, a "local" resident, was running a drug operation, for which he was eventually sent to jail. He erected the first barricade to keep his operation a secret from the authorities.

[Carey]

Hawaii's unique geology poses many problems with finding "any indication" of pollution.... The fractures, tubes & the different lava layers make it very hard to trace effluent from its' source (have heard that some environmental groups have done dye tracing from some properties, but have nor seen the data). The standard for most cesspool/septic failures does not really work here (most are based on percolation tests & effluent soil tests....hard when there are not standard deposition layers & a lack of soil....esp. soil that is very nitrogen poor, as some effluent tests are for nitrogens....)

[Jeffhale]

Without having read all of the replies Rob. All I can say is that, i visited Champagne Pond last Aug.. And of the six months I've spent on the island, with so little areas where the public can safely swim and frolic, especially in the Puna district.. I was dismayed that the public is forced to endeavor rough, limited, and poorly dozed access roads. And then after traveling these, chopping up tiers and other damages from the terrain withstanding, There's a whole bay there!!

However, access to the bay is denied because of the privet ownership and gated community's effort to secure the ocean areas and beach, or water front locations.. Once you are there, threw the poor road,, Very poor road, the public can not enter at least 80 percent of the available areas... Not to leave out the awful ‘stink eye’ looks owners within it give people who dare to touch areas within the community’s streets and or sideways.

All you can do is return the ‘look’ with another expressing: “what? It aint your right of possession or denial, thank you very much.”

I have no compassion supporting blockage of the public currently and in the future. In fact, support the argument that, the rights of the states citizens of free access to all ocean areas and beaches, are currently violated by this community..

It's pretty much a given; the residences ought to have considered when buying property within it.. "enjoy it now while you can, and don't be disappointed when those gates are removed."

Champagne pond is a hidden secret where a shallow bay exists, and far more opportunity for the public than anywhere within Puna is available, for plenty frolic, swim and play, and shallow fishing. I could not believe my eyes once I arrived there that so much of it is restricted..

Nothing personal Rob, or anybody that lives there.. I know if I had chosen this area, I’d be a easy bag for the Publics argument of right to enter.. Would have expected it as I said..

And the trash or litter left by local visitors is more likly a sign of their dismay, of being denied full access....



Edited by - Jeffhale on 11/06/2007 08:37:22

[Rob Tucker]

I'm not going to argue with you Jeff. I think your opinions are perfectly valid. I don't own land there. I am not aware that 80% of the shoreline is unavailable. I think that 80-90% of the shoreline is simply dangerous. Waves on rocks.

It should be remembered that the public shore waters are indeed public. Over a number of decades private property owners have dug and developed private ponds or pools on their lots. I have not heard any suggestions that those privately held pools should be open to the public.

The real problem I see is the general lack of attention, planning and concern for the people of Puna by the Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR).

Punaweb moderator

[missydog1]

Re the "hidden secret" aspect of the pond -- like too many other places that have fragile ecologies and can't support a high number of visitors -- Champagne Pond ceased being any kind of secret once it was featured as "a real gem" in "Big Island Revealed."

Along with Ahalanui, these are the two most promoted swimming spots in Puna, by possibly the best-selling guide book to the island. Which book says nothing at all about behaving respectfully or packing out what you bring in, or respecting private property rights.

It also promotes the misconception that just because the shoreline belongs to everyone, that the public can decide what access to use.

Jeff, is not true that there is an absolute right to access the shoreline. There is a right to access the shoreline by traversing the edge of the shore or coming from water. On the Puna coast, that can be pretty difficult.

As for land access, public rights apply to specific "public access" routes that are designated. Otherwise there is no right to cross private property without permission of the owner.

If the State or County or DNLR omitted to secure public access from the public road system when it approved a subdivision or a development, then the public has a problem when it loses the good will of the private subdivision.

This is how I understand it currently, but I welcome being better educated on this complex subject.

I don't know what if any public access was dedicated across and through Kapoho Beach Lots via the private roads, and would love to know if anyone here has that info.

ETA
and remember that public rights over the shoreline only apply to the shoreline from the ocean to the mean high water mark. Anything mauka of that is private unless a wider public easement has been created -- such as along the cliffs of HPP. As I understand it.




Edited by - KathyH on 11/06/2007 10:44:30

[Bob Orts]

Kathy, I was told that the county planning department lot plans will have all easments shown on their maps. The tax maps may also show it. You may need to go down and look lot by lot as there's no inventory (unlike Maui has) that shows them all on a big map, or at least not that appears to be public.

As foe the rights, according to HRS, easements are by existing county roads to shorelines, through existing easements over county land, or through easements (required or by condemnation) across private property. This appears to have neen enacted in the mid 70's so some properties may not list legal easements on their property decriptions. But I was told it doesn't matter what the property owner has, it only matters what the county has.

[missydog1]

quote:

---

You may need to go down and look lot by lot as there's no inventory (unlike Maui has) that shows them all on a big map, or at least not that appears to be public.

---

Thanks Bob, if I owned or was buying in Beach Lots, I would. My curiosity on this issue lacks that much motivation. More on an "if anyone knows" level.

My point that I was trying to make to Jeff concerns the very common conception that the public has a right to access the shoreline that supersedes private property ...

for example, there is a piece of beach or shoreline. You (the Public) want to go there. There's an oceanfront house built there. Assumption: you can walk through the yard to get to the shoreline because the magic words "public access" entitle you to do so, so off you go -- without any idea of whether there's a recorded easement or right of way.

Lots of people have this impression, especially visitors, just from hearing about "public access." Then they think the property owners are in the wrong for giving them stinkeye.

Public access easements are spaced out along the shoreline. More likely than not these days, they are signed. The access may require a person to walk a ways down the shoreline to get in front of that hypothetical piece of beach in front of that oceanfront house.

And if one doesn't find and use legitimate public access paths, but cuts through private property, then one will very likely get stinkeye and rightfully so (IMHO).

[kapohogal]

Shame on KapohoKine Tours. They bring in 6 to 10 vans of tourists a day to polluted Champagne Pond. $159 a person, do the math. The guy's protecting his bank account, not Hawaii