Welfare

[robguz]

re: It's the old, "Why should I work at McDonalds when I can get free money..." thing.
Like I said, they do have to work, there is no free money except for people who are independently verified to be disabled. That said, they can choose to volunteer instead of work at McDonalds, and if they do work full time minimum wage, they really don't bring home a lot more than if they volunteer full time. Transportation and child care are partially covered, but with minimum wage at $7.25 an hour there isn't much incentive to do other than the bare minimum. And I agree Kathy, there are also people who are educated. I have a master's degree and I'm making less than I did on the mainland 16 years ago in an entry level government job, and that was about the only job I could get here. The economy here is so bad that in general, even if you work hard and are good at what you do, you aren't ever really going to make much money. The formerly best, reliable jobs like for the County and the State are facing pay cuts and layoffs. You can become an RN here after years of schooling and experience and still make less than the receptionist at my old government office made in San Francisco when I was there. I really feel for people who grow up here and anyone trying to raise a family here.

[Adam79]

Wow, I was starting to think that the gold bracelets and nice cars came with the welfare benefits here. I think anybody who shops at local grocery stores regularly has made this observation.
Before I begin, let me say that I grew up on welfare and food stamps (back when they were actual food stamps, not ebt cards). I am the oldest of 6 siblings, and my mother was a single mom most of the time. She had 6 total children from 3 different failed marriages (2 each). My father was a drug user, her 2nd husband an alcoholic, and the 3rd a child molester. Now you might say "Wow she sure could pick 'em", and you'd have a very good point. My point though, is that I have walked several miles in these peoples' shoes so I feel I am qualified to speak on the subject.
I agree that there is a place for welfare, and I'm very grateful is was available for my family growing up. I also agree that it is massively abused, and some (not all) of those on assistance feel entitled to it for some reason. The reality is that regardless of your upbringing, everybody has ample opportunity to make something of themselves on one condition: If they really want to and are willing to work for it and make sacrifices. Although they can be hard to find sometimes, there are always jobs out there and not just minimum wage ones. Most people are unwilling to go outside thier comfort zone to find work though. For sure welfare needs massive reform, but every person is ultimately responsible for their own life. There are no birth rights to always having a roof over your head, a good paying job, food on the table, or having nice things. There is a short list of things that anybody can do to greatly improve their situation:

#1: Stop having kids! If people could just get this one thing down it would probably make most of the other problems go away or become much less severe. Look, if you want to have 12 children, more power to you. But you damn well better be able to feed and care for them on your own. Every teen or adult knows full well where babies come from and how to prevent it, yet so many refuse to take simple steps to avoid the thousands and thousands of "oops" babies that are born every year. And please don't give me any excuses that birth control is against your religion because I'll bet you that unmarried intercourse falls under the same umbrella and you don't seem to have a problem with that. One free handout I am very much in favor of is condoms or any other method of birth control. My wife and I are 30, with no kids of our own, (we now care for my 6 yr old nephew and 4yr old niece) and people are always amazed that we haven't had any kids by choice.

#2: Live within your means! The problem is that too many people don't like what "within your means" happens to be, so they go way beyond it without worrying about the consequences. This one applies to everybody, not just welfare reciepients. Maybe you can't afford to buy a $25k truck and spend an additional $5k on tires and lift kit, so buy a used car or truck for $5k. Maybe you can't afford to spend $7 on a pack of cigs or a 6 pack of beer every day, so stop smoking and drinking. One of the worst money pits is eating out, even if it is so called "cheap" fast food. You can easily eat for an entire day or two at home for the cost of one fast food meal or plate lunch, even with the high cost of groceries here. You don't NEED a nice cell phone, TV, or computer. Cancel your cable or satellite. If you have a yard, grow a garden or even raise a couple chickens. Its hard NOT to run into people giving me a bag of tangerines or bananas from their yard and I hardly have any family or close friends here. And for god's sake don't ever get a credit card or go into consumer debt. That's one of the worst lies told to young people is that they need a credit card and to carry a certain amount of debt to be financially healthy.
I could go on and on but the point is that the lifestyle and money decisions are a substantially bigger factor in people's economic situations than their lack of income.

As someone who has grown up in poverty and had all the classic excuses happen in my household (drug abuse, acoholism, sexual abuse), yet made something of myself because I CHOSE TO, I have little sympathy except in the most extreme cases such as disabilities. I realize that Hawaii has some of the most liberal attitudes as a whole so the welfare entitlement philosophy probably won't change any time soon. Ask yourself what happens if the state goes bankrupt? What if welfare goes away or is severely reduced? What if welfare never existed in the first place? Would people starve? Would they just lay down and die? Would you feel sympathy for those who break into your house and steal from you because they were just "doing what they had to do because they had no other choice"? Would everybody still believe that we must choose between supporting and feeding the poor or having them all turn into criminals and rob and kill and steal everything? Sorry for the rambling but this is a subject I feel very strongly about and see some of the worst bass-ackwards attitudes about it here in Hawaii, not that it is a problem exclusive to Hawaii. Am I in the extreme minority by believing that as an adult, nobody owes you anything? The harsh reality is that this money doesnt appear magically from thin air and that this and many other states are in grave danger of going completely broke. How many of you feel that your taxes are too low and would have no problem with them being continuously raised to match the demand of the public trough?

Ok I'll get off my soap box now so some bleeding heart can attempt to invalidate my points and come up with more excuses. By the way I'm not this angry or bitter of a person, you just happened to catch me at the right moment with the right issue in the right frame of mind ;-)

[David M]

Adam79 - AWESOMELY WELL WRITTEN.

David

Ninole Resident

[Daniel]

Adam79, Nice! Except the not having kids part, kids are great and fill your life with joy! "Would they just lay down and die?" Haha that is classic!

Daniel R Diamond

[Adam79]

Yeah kids are awesome, but not a requirement for everybody. Consequently we now have my Sister's kids (recurring drug problem) and in all likelihood will until they are grown. So there you go, sometimes life doesn't care what your plans are and you just have to do the right thing. I just wish more people would actually want kids before bringing them into the world so they can give them the proper care and love to help them grow into adults that contribute to society.

[mdd7000]

Adam79 - Very well said on all counts.

[Hazen]

Thanks KathyH and Adam79! Both insightfull and informed posts.

I would like to say that my ex (she and her daughter are both still very much a part of my life) has stepped outside the system, never really got in, and decided to live an alternative lifestyle here. She found the Hawaiian Welfare System untenable for herself.

She lives in a commune, most there who recieve EBT pool their money to buy cooperatively in bulk. They grow lots of their own food, and help each other out constantly. Kids run from camp to camp and grow up outside with many caring adults around them. They get to witness all the dramas of life. For better or for worse, but it's real and honest. They may not have walls on their homes, but they are loved, free to explore, and grow up in nature. To be totally honest, their upbringing reminds me of life on big, old, extended-family farms in rural Vermont. Honest land work, freedom to run around, cooperative parenting, and good organic food. Lots of rough and the edges characters and common-sense learning too.

I look at my life, i work hard, honestly and have no dependents. I realize i have no health insurance, no home, and no retirement. Maybe i'm in the wrong lifestyle. I can't tell if they've checked out or checked in. If it weren't for the dependency on EBT and friends like me who can provide a bed, a meal, a warm shower, and a shoulder during times of need i'd probably grow a beard and resign/elevate myself to art, tent living, sunburns and dirt. No worse than internet culture, vehicle and home maintenance, and working with toxic building materials. I think if i was in her position i'd sign up for her life in a minute. I respect her for finding a creative way of following her values and doing her best. I have no doubt that as her child ages she will be exhultant to have the time and opourtunity to continue her education and become gainfull employed, self or otherwise.

I feel sorry for those who have decided that a 7-11 diet, cable TV, and Ainokea (I No Care) Culture are their life's ambition. Ignorance. We're all responsible for changing it.

BTW i just want to mention how many great conversations and how much wonderful dialogue is inspired in and around my life by sharing my thoughts and yours from PW threads in the real world.

[pslamont]

Welfare has always been a touchy subject. When this country gets it's head our of the dark hole and into the light, makes public services UNIVERSAL, and honestly recognizes the needs of the population we will have a managable welfare system.

We need Universal Health Care that is absolute and comprehensive for all citizens.
We need Universal early childhood education as an extension of every elementary school.
We need a welfare system that provides opportunity to learn and grow with job training, child care and limits in place.
We need to put welfare recipients into the public work pool, utilizing the public child care to make them available to train and work, both in and outside of the child care facility.
We need to make it more attractive to be off welfare than on welfare and possible to transition out of the welfare system realistically.

Yeah, I know, I am one of those nasty liberals who thinks Social Responsibility is part of Democracy.

I want to be the kind of woman that, when my feet
hit the floor each morning, the devil says

"Oh Crap, She's up!"

[mella l]

I vote for that package PSL! You all are amazingly well versed and educated on these social necessities and I appreciate the sincere dialog.

mella l

Paris London New York PUNA

[LEROY]

I am glad to see this topic did not get out of control. there are a lot of smart people here who put food for thought in others minds. [][][]