From SPACE down to Earth - the outcome?

[StillHope]

The outcome of SPACE story might change Puna's future forever.

For the best or not - that would be up to you to decide when a commercial Village Center will appear right next door to you.

The original thread (http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10170)
was locked because it was an"announcement thread" and with great help of Peregrine.

I believe that knowing the situation in progress is very important.

So
1.-How the issue of noise and other crowd related problems was addressed in the meeting?

2.-What was the percentage of Seaview residents (approximate,of course)
there?

3.-Did any of the invited government officials express his/her concern

about the impact of the SPACE activities on the immediate neighbors?


I couldn't attend - had to work.Otherwise I'd be the one with information.Sorry.
____________________________________________________________________

Note: Peregrine,if you can - please,stay out of this thread.
You can always start yours.
Who cares about the politics inside the organization if this organization does a lot of good?!
At this point negative impact of it's(some) activities on the immediate neighbors is much more important!!


Rob,you can always delete any character assassination remarks,right?

[terry.way]

I would very much like to continue the conversation with Bob Orts, myself.

Some answers to your questions, StillHope, fresh from my wife:

1. How the issue of noise and other crowd related problems was addressed in the meeting?
No issues were addressed. No solutions were offered. AG-zoned noise limits were talked about, and the steps already taken to keep SPACE quiet[er] were talked about. The bulk of the meeting was comments from the audience.

2.-What was the percentage of Seaview residents (approximate,of course) there?
They forgot to do a sign-in sheet. 120 or 130 people showed up. The moderator herself lost count around 100, and announced that. Invited speakers were done around 11:15, Uncle Sam, Jon Olson, R.J. - Auntie Emily's legislative aide. People who wanted to speak put their names and neighborhood on little slips of paper. SeaView residents were supposed to go first, other than that, people were called up in the order the slips were received. The meeting was scheduled for two hours. The meeting went on for three hours, to let everyone speak. A significant percentage of the audience stayed to the end. At a guess, 50 people spoke. I guess the real answer is: wait until the little slips of paper are counted, and we'll know better then.

3.-Did any of the invited government officials express his/her concern about the impact of the SPACE activities on the immediate neighbors?
One of the invited speakers recommended we ignore the cease-and-desist :-) One of the invited speakers was specifically asked to talk about noise, another was specifically asked to talk about traffic. But they weren't government officials.

My two cents: it's important everyone has a voice. Telling anyone to shut up is just going to make them angrier. KathyH pointed something out in the earlier topic, paraphrase: mob mentality can be brutal to an outcast. There's a group dynamic at work, and we're all filling these roles. This group dynamic has occurred millions of times over thousands of years. Once someone becomes slightly outcast, this downward spiral starts. Chickens do it, apes do it, and humans do it. A group may think they're reasonable in shunning the outcast, so the outcast digs in, making the group more determined, feedback loop. The greater SPACE community is playing this out, and so is Peregrine. She's filling the role, as well.

But a line needs to be drawn. Reasonable people need to be able to do reasonable things without being hampered by unreasonable demands.

No one at SPACE is upset or depressed about the possibility of no more public music performances. It's the farmer's market vendors who are hurting, financially. Ironically, the vendor Peregrine had such a problem with, and called the health department on, actually has their food service permit. So they're doing okay.

[Kapohocat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by terry.way... Invited speakers...Jon Olson...

---

I admire Jon Olson and his perspectives. Can you paraphrase what he spoke about?

[StillHope]

Thank you,Terry.I appreciate your honesty.
After you answer Kapohocat's question ,I have one more - how this Village Center was pictured at the meeting?
Was it just to define the status of SPACE or the community has some other plans?
Thank you.

[Kaiona]

I just heard about the conversation on this blog and I haven't made it through all the comments on the other topic but since my wife drug me along to the meeting on Saturday a couple of things did stand out.
We live in Puna Palisades and the noise from space does bother us sometimes when the wind blows a certain way (more so the wife than me). We thought the meeting was supposed to address the concerns of their next door neighbors about the noise etc but instead they discussed plans to expand and become a village center. They said now they want to build a kitchen, restaurant and industrial center there. There were a few neighbors who said they were bothered by the noise and traffic. One close neighbor was actually booed and heckled a little when he complained. But then it came up that he built his house after space was already there and operating. A lot of people praised space for the things they've done especially the farmers market and it does seem like there are a lot of positive things. But there was no time for questions from the audience about what the village center may mean in the long run or any other discussion. I know that Seaview has a community association and one of the board members spoke and gave general support to space but it didnt really seem like they were 100% behind the whole plan. I wonder if they are.
I didnt think any of this really was an issue for anybody else but Seaview but now I wonder what it might mean for other neighborhoods.

[peregrine]

This whole thing should be an interesting test case. It is fascinating, as someone who does converse with people on many sides of and degrees of separation to the issue, to here each person's own take on it. From the legal facts which have emerged in this forum to some of the more idealistic spin being bantered about the neighborhood, as much as I would like to see a community decision on whatever choices are made, it is quite clear that it can only come about when everyone, supporters and detractors, agree to work together on a common vision. That work will not be easy, but this community has a chance to set an example, many examples, of the "right" way to do things. Let's take it now.

I appreciate that Mr.Way recognizes the animalistic mentality that has gripped the some factions community. I have to ask, what he is doing to change it and bring about reason? Who is ready to walk their talk?

I have been previously criticized for making accusations (which have not been proven false), yet I am still, in this new thread, being accused. Is that where we need to go? Already? There is an accusation that I called the Health Department. Other people made calls, there is only suspicion as to who called about what. For that matter, the vendor Mr.Way referenced had for many months been threatening to call the health department because they were one of the only two vendors with licenses, a fact which they were all too ready to extoll and prove. Is that not cause to wonder? The same vendor sped by me at approximately 60 mph on W.Pohakupele loop after the meeting (no exaggeration, they were going EXTREMELY fast). Is that really the kind of people who we want to welcome into this neighborhood?

Without dialogue, without a willingness to hear all sides, the problems will only deepen. Mr.Way is absolutely correct about the "feedback loop" It's time for everyone invested in this community to try a strategy that works for all, and for all time.

[terry.way]

Kapohocat, Jon Olson was invited to talk about the Puna Community Development Plan. His closing words: "Government, get out of our way."

---

Kaiona: "One close neighbor was actually booed and heckled a little when he complained." That sounds like Boaz. Some people felt free to heckle him because he's part of the community. He was a drummer with the infamous African Drumming class that radicalized the opposition. He simultaneously complained about the noise of the performances, and about not being able to perform.

---

StillHope: "...how this Village Center was pictured at the meeting?"

Let's imagine that there are several commercial ventures already in the neighborhood, say a chiropractor and a car repair place. This is clearly hypothetical, you understand. Would the community support having these services at SPACE, properly zoned? And could SPACE continue the more popular activities, the farmer's market, under this new plan.

---

Finally, I'm not trying to accuse you, Peregrine. I retract the statement that you called the health department. I really don't care.

Let me be blunt. My conversation with you is over. I'd like SPACE and the community to figure out a compassionate, enlightened strategy for the next crank we run into. You are the source of your own problems, not Graham Ellis.

[peregrine]

Government can get out of the way when people act responsibly. I am all for anarchy, but that is not what we have here.
It should not matter that Boaz is a drummer, or that his house was built after SPACE. He is a neighbor, an owner/resident, and he should be given respect when voicing concerns that affect him more than anyone else in attendance. That he was heckled at this "community meeting" is an insult to all. No one will ever know if the community supports any kind of activity or development if that is how key members of the community are treated.

A final footnote to Mr.Way: Graham Ellis is the source of his own problems, and has been since long before any of us were here.

[Bob Orts]

Kaiona, you raise some interesting items.

The issue of the meeting not addressing the concerns of the neighbors speaks volumes about cooperation. If a landowner in violation of the SUP really were community minded, they would have gone out of their way to give people who have issues, a chance to voice those issues.

Talk about plans to expand and become a village center shows a lack of understanding about what these village centers are all about. It’s not a community center but just an overlay of permitted use in an area. Nothing says that it will be limited to or authorized on any particular land just because they do things now. A landowner next to SPACE can apply to be included in that mixed-use zoning and open a fast food restaurant if they like. If the people were given the impression that it’s some type of sing-a-long community gathering spot, they are in for a big surprise. SPACE is misapplying the community/village/neighborhood center concept for their personal gain and could have a detrimental impact on the community as a whole.

As for the person who built after SPACE, that person has EVERY RIGHT to complain if the activities they are complaining about is the result of SPACE violation of their SUP. This is the issue everyone is avoiding addressing. The activities occurring in violation of an SUP is not allowed. A property buyer who does their due diligence can only rely upon the SUP to guide them as to what activities will occur. If something is happening outside the SUP it doesn’t matter if the person bought before, during, after, or that same weekend. It’s a violation of the SUP and SPACE is wrong.

[JWFITZ]

Jon Olson and I obviously have similar views about the "Puna Community Suicide Pact" where you're expected to accept that every bloody develop-able lot on this island will be built and if you suggest there might be reasons to the contrary you're labeled a crank or a doomsayer. Frankly, I can't envision a worse future than than what the PCDP assumes as a first principle assumption. I can however, vision real reasons why it won't happen. Which of course, no one will discuss.

If you don't support, don't facilitate.

If you plan, what do you plan for?

None of this is hyperbole.

http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/