The Secret's out about Pahala's biofuel plant

[konadave]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdd7000

Fuel cell technology will probably be the next step. You may be surprised that the oil companies have been investing in the technology for some time.

---

While I agree that fuel cells have promise I think I read somewhere that it takes a lot of electricity to make hydrogen. Actually I think I remember reading that if you could measure the amount of energy it takes to make a set amount of hydrogen that it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than the amount of energy the hydrogen provides. In other words, you could use the energy it takes to make the hydrogen and power a comparable vehicle farther, much farther. And depending on how the electricity is generated it even creates less pollution to run the same vehicle than it would to make hydrogen. So the whole thing turns into the law of diminishing returns. Everything is a tradeoff.

I think that BMW is at the forefront of the fuel cell movement. They have done a lot of work and funded a lot of fueling stations in certain states.

I find it difficult to think we can get away from fossil fuels completely. I think the current batch of hybrids and the new Chevy Volt are quite good compromises. The all electric vehicles such as the Nissan Leaf are also quite interesting and practible, but only to an extent. I think the Volt is the best of all worlds. It runs on electricity for the first 40 miles and then a small gas motor that drives a generator kicks in. That way if you have to go a farther distance you don't run out of power in the middle of nowhere. The EPA has had to change they way they rate miles per gallon because of these cars.

Ka'u Web
Ka'u Blog
Ka'u Homes
Pohue Bay
Kona Forum
Dream Kona
Da Kine Hosting
Da Kine Web Design

[silverpenny10]

Rob Tucker:"domestically produced biofuels developing a sizable market share is nothing but good news for our island, our country and the planet"
Sounds great in theory, but what about the huge amount of chemicals that will be utilized. Research run offs from sprayed golf courses. The scope proposed here is the size of how many golf courses?

Peter Epperson:"Silverpenny's accusation about the intention of the biofuel development is way off base"
This was what was reported, not my accusation. I have nothing against Ed Olsen, Mallick, or even Enriques. I just have a big problem with desecration of the last frontier, the last truly rural, the most historical area on this island, Kau.

Pilgrim:"Another take on the subject...

"Biofuel" has become such a buzz word lately and apparent hallmark of green-ness and "sustainability" to the intellectually lazy. Many developers (like say those just looking to make a buck pushing their projects through)will use that and any other slime they can manage, to pull one over on the County and of course - the people."
But of course, oldest trick in the book. The people of Kau would never put up with obvious, outright development schemes (numerous failed attempts in the past), so package it differently and hope people won't notice.

Daniel:” We can easily grow all our own food”
Yet 85-90% of our food is imported.

Rob Tucker:” Until I learn something different I am supportive of the biofuel venture”
Until I learn different that there will NOT be extensive chemical use; that the microwave technology will NOT harm people, animals, plants; that this biofuel will benefit people and NOT the military, I oppose this venture.

Bullwinkle:” It is a whole lot easier to save energy than to create it .... creating new ag land to be self sustaining in food supplies”
Yes, and yes. Food over fuel.

PaulW:” but the laws of physics are also universal”
Enter quantum physics.
“Einstein helped us along the way, without magical thinking”
Einstein was the father of magical thinking.

dugger:” man's inability to conceive of infinity in both time and space”
This limitation is why we’re still in the dark ages. For a specie that only utilizes less than 10% of our brain, it’s comical that we dare to claim superiority.

mdd7000:” What if you were stuck in one of those recent snowstorms/blizzards and were in an electric car?”
That’s why we live here in HI, no blizzards, bountiful sun and wind. Even if you were stuck, you thumb a ride, brah!

[Rob Tucker]

Okay. You win.

[silverpenny10]

Rob,
When we destroy our natural resources, we all lose.

[wjbillock]

I like fuel cell technology.
Use a free source (geothermal, solar, wind, wave) to create the energy to make these fuel cells.

Isn't PGV producing more electricity than HELCO can buy? They should diversify by building fuel cells and work a deal with the County to have them convert all of their vehicles to fuel cell...and then when there is a demand, the rest follows.

In my opinion, any vehicle that has to be plugged into the most expensive power grid in the United States is foolish.

"What? Me Worry?" - Alfred E. Newman

[dugger]

Okay, this might sound absurd but I'm serious. In order to solve a problem I like to go the extreme of that situation. In this case we have run out of fuel and as stated by some current alternatives are not viable. But take the idea of compressed air. Now I know that in the case of steam cars water is not the fuel, it has to be heated. And so on. But I think of the FLintstones. Not joking. Compressed air needs energy to compress the air. We have that energy inside us. A simple compressor run by a stationary bicycle with a fairly sophisticated gearing system. The same can be done inside the car compartment with a simple pedal system. We would not only have "free" fuel but we would be in great shape.

[Bullwinkle]

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7459802.html

Abstract: An energy conversion system includes a first mechanical system for converting reciprocating motion to rotary motion, a second system formed of belts and pulleys connected to said first system and driven by said rotary motion to lift a weight in response to said rotary motion from a first position to a second position and allow the weight to return to said first position under the influence of gravity. A rotary electrical is driven by the second system through a transmission means connected to the second system to create electricity only while the weight is returning from its second to its first position.

Steven Loui may have a way to do it using wave power - more details on the patent link - good read - Steve is in Honolulu - nice guy I hear.

a couple of oxen rigged to a simple wheel would save a lot of wear and tear on that bike if you want a basic solution - grin

[silverpenny10]

Dugger,

Go by a gym and watch all those people on tread mills and stationary bikes going nowhere (I used to be one long ago). What if we were to hook all them machines together and feed into a huge battery?

[dugger]

Absolutely, Silverpenny. I envision a whole industry of healthy young men and women pedallers. Rather than pumping gas, young people will pump their legs.

[MarkP]

Compressed air, fuel cells, and batteries are all pretty much the same thing. They store energy, they don't make energy. Even the fuel cell only converts stored chemical energy into electrical energy. A fuel cell also requires highly refined fuel (hydrogen) that is usually generated by electrolysis requiring an input of electrical energy.

KonaDave, you are correct that it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than you get back while burning it. This is the way of the universe. There is no free lunch. It also takes more energy to charge a battery than you get back out of it. There is no energy storage method for which this is not true. It would definitely be true for the compressed air car. An interesting angle on the compressed air car is that while the air is expanding in the engine, it will make things cold. Basically the engine block will get cold. You might get air conditioning out of the deal if this could be harnessed.

Dugger, the benefit to what you propose is that you can store energy from pedaling over a long time. Human power is limited. You could get on a bike and pedal to town. That would be the most efficient. A bicycle chain and sprockets drive is the most efficient transmission there is and a person riding a bike is phenomenally efficient, but people but out power at a very low rate so you will travel slowly and carry very little if you are limited to producing the power during the trip. If on the other hand you pedal a pump for an hour a day for 10 days, then assuming 50% efficiency for the storage and engine/transmission, you have 5 hrs worth of energy that you could spend all at once.

I think that you will discover that pedaling is hard work. Once you invest in the system to store the energy whether that is batteries, hydrogen from electrolysis, or compressed air, you are free to take advantage of intermittent energy sources such as solar, wind, and wave power. The advantage of batteries is that they are a comparatively well understood and mature technology, but they are not light nor do they have all that much capacity. The advantage of fuel cells is that they are efficient and "energy dense". That is why they use them on spacecraft, but they are expensive and require highly refined fuel. The advantage of compressed air is that is well understood and light, but does not have a lot of storage capacity. That may be changing now with kevlar and carbon fiber pressure vessels. I deal with compressed gas cylinders at work. We have some aluminum cylinders that weigh 55 lbs empty. I recently had to move some steel cylinders that were slightly larger but that weighed more than 100 lb each. These cylinders hold 2,000 psi and have special caps that protect the valve stem in case the cylinder falls over because if that valve stem broke off the cylinder would take off like a rocket. So pressure vessel technology really controls issues of safety and capacity. A typical economy car that gets 30 mpg might hold about 10 gallons of fuel and have a 300 mile range. Its internal combustion engine is about 25% efficient. Just pulling this out of thin air but I am guessing the efficiency of the air motor is around 50%. Where I am going with this is that if your compressed air car has a range of 300 miles then breaking that air storage cylinder in a crash would be like setting off 5 gallons of gas in a properly mixed fuel/air explosion. Big boom.