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quote:
Originally posted by Obie
I don't see how we can rationally oppose this new technology.
The key word is "rationally". There really is little rational opposition. You will have the standard flock of weirdoes who opposes it on everything from health, environment, fiscal, and they also will oppose it because it's a secret military program to cross breed aliens with Hawaiians to create a race of super warriors to battle the Antriliians from Xyclqkgard 6. Personally I have no problem with those people except at Thanksgiving when they buy up the last package of aluminum foil for their head protectors and our turkey legs get burnt as a result. Ignore them, since no matter what you say factual and authoritative, they live in their own fantasy world.
Now, one thing that hasn't gotten much press is the source material for the plant. In looking over their documents, I see a good amount of source material being currently non-recyclable waste. I’m talking a lot of products that normally is land filled because there is no recyclable market. Many of these are also the types of products that raise environmental and health eyebrows when used in WTE incinerators. But in this case the "gases" are part of the final fuel and not just the heat.
Where a WTE incinerator produces heat from the source material, this project used the heat, gases, liquefied separation, and even the non consumed biomass. And it's using material Hawaii currently has no market for and has to landfill. These are materials we don’t want in the landfill. Were not talking your typical recyclable metals, glass, plastics and papers, were talking wood construction debris, used diapers, tires, cross contaminated papers, and of course vegetation beyond the composting ability.
There are questions that still needs to be answered and issues to explore, but the majority that opposes this would oppose a Girl Scout selling cookies in front of a store for the exact same reasons. Caulk it up to the anal experiments conducted on them when abducted by the green men in their spaceship.
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Bob, that is one of the funniest, yet true, comments I think you have posted. [  ]
Don't buy a Dell computer...
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Bob, can't say I've agreed with you all that many times over the years, but I do think you let the bogey man out of the closet this time. Well done.
David
Ninole Resident
Ninole Resident
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Obie, the eucalyptus forests were planted on leased land, with much cty/state/fed assistance, and the process companies went belly up in less than 5yr. The initial plan was to harvest at about 5-10 years, utilizing a grappling type truck thingy that would grasp, cut & load the trees. (there are a couple of these thingys rusting away up on the Hamakua coast)
I had a class project in '05 that looked at the potentials for these groves, but most trees were then too large in dia, wt & length to be utilized as planned, and they are very close planted for all but clear cut systems. The trees have become somewhat of a pain for adjacent landowners & some of the roadways, as the edge trees have been toppling in high water & wind events over the last 7 years.
Over the last few years, there have been a number of proposals for these trees, mainly for chipping, or biofuel, but nothing has yet come to fruition, & most of the plans want further a$$istance to develop.
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Carey, some very good points.
plus - the biodiversity of these forests is almost zero. Whenever there are forests with identical trees, by the tens of thousands planted, it harms and prohibits what used to be native plants and wildlife.
Robguz,
Would you do us a favor and report back on the SunRun system once you get going with it ? Thank you !.
Sounds very interesting.
aloha,
pog
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Could the military be partially responsible for the mistrust often encountered within the public sphere?
However, whether you support the military's presence or not, since they are here, I think it would be a good thing if they were polluting less.
I do understand silverpenny10's concerns about using potential food production land for growing industrial fuels, but this is not the case here, as pointed out, this is abandoned and potentially contaminated ex-sugar cane land.
My concerns are however, the use of huge microwaves as heating devices as well as the manner in which the crops/land will be cared for. Will they be adding more poisons to the soil and water? How will they control weeds, etc?
In my opinion, the proposed Ka'u plant is an example of a good idea that could be great, if done right. Citizen input and collaboration will be crucial!
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"...and of course vegetation beyond the composting ability."???????
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement Bob. If anything we have a lack of utilization of these kinds of materials, thus the fact that so much bagged soils sell at the store that must be shipped here. Methane is one of the "hottest" so called greenhouse gases. Its toll on the atmosphere is only balanced out by the photosynthesis of the vegetation it should be fertilizing. To burn large amounts of green-waste versus returning it to the soil is a backwards move which will only ad to the warming of our atmosphere, solar flares or not!
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quote:
Originally posted by rasman
"...and of course vegetation beyond the composting ability."???????
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement Bob.
Hawaii doe not have the resource ability to create a composting operation capable of handling all the vegetation that can be composted. Technically everything from weeds to trees, newspapers to wood containers can be composted, but does an operation exist or been proposed that can handle it. Add in the cross contaminated factor (let's say wood pallets soaked with spilled motor oils, or used pizza boxes with residual food products) what happens to them? They usually end up in the landfill.
If Hawaii was to begin a program of just composting invasive plants and weeds, how soon would they be overwhelmed? Although the ability to compost everything is available, is there a desire and capability?
quote:
Originally posted by rasman
Methane is one of the "hottest" so called greenhouse gases. Its toll on the atmosphere is only balanced out by the photosynthesis of the vegetation it should be fertilizing. To burn large amounts of green-waste versus returning it to the soil is a backwards move which will only ad to the warming of our atmosphere, solar flares or not!
Maybe some clarification is in order. The plant is not burning anything. It’s basically placing all this stuff in a microwave oven and heating it up in different stages. As it heats up, various combustible gasses will be emitted that are captured and used as fuel in power generation or converted to SNG, something the Big Island lacks. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to bring that natural gas stove with you and not have to convert it to propane?
Also, as material heats up it changes from one thing to another. Products with petroleum, animal fat, and vegetable oils will release those items, which also is captured and used for fuels. Take the use pizza box. The cardboard contains oils, gasses and products that can be used as fuel and the residual food also can become fuels. Cardboard can produce combustible gasses if heated and harvested.
quote:
Originally posted by rasman
I do understand silverpenny10's concerns about using potential food production land for growing industrial fuels, but this is not the case here, as pointed out, this is abandoned and potentially contaminated ex-sugar cane land.
My concerns are however, the use of huge microwaves as heating devices as well as the manner in which the crops/land will be cared for. Will they be adding more poisons to the soil and water? How will they control weeds, etc?
I agree with the land use. Most of the land will either be fallow or it will be developed for other than agricultural food use. Food crops are expensive to grow and if a company can make $250 an acre growing food crops, $750 an acre growing industrial crops, or $10,000 and acre on development, which do we honestly think will happen?
Although I deal very little with Hawaii, the assignments I do have are taking agricultural and conservation zoned land and turning it into industrial, commercial, resort or high density residential land.
Regarding the microwaves, The microwave energy is double shielded. There will be little microwave energy outside the vessel and none outside the structure. It will have less impact on the environment than someone BBQing some steaks on a fire. Most universities already have these gasification type units in their labs. It’s not new technology, it’s just a new way of using it for a purpose that has come of age.
The majority of the products being used will most likely be what many consider waste. A whole new industry can pop up over this. If they can find a way to harvest fuel and clean biomass from used disposable diapers, imagine the private business opportunities to collect and transporting to the facility. Now imagine what wouldn’t be going in the landfill. Maybe yard waste can be sold instead of just discarding or burning on one’s land. Demolition projects could have a market for the old building material. Tires would have a retail value. Plastic bags?, yes they will also have a destination beyond the landfill.
We can find fault with many things, but the potential for good so far outweighs the bad that ignorant statements by some that this is a horrible thing, well it doesn’t say much about the local people’s intelligence.
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