Mauna Kea, the Sacred

[Kelena]

Silverpenny is probably in the minority on this issue, but minority viewpoints are generally welcome, I think. As to whether she ever has anything good to say, that veers into the realm of the personal and puts the focus on her rather than on the issue she has raised. We have had a spate of people focusing on other people here, rather than on topics of discussion. I would counsel against heading in that direction, for the good of the forum.

[JerryCarr]

The TMT will be an enormous boost to the Big Island in terms of economics, education, pride, scientific standing, and the overall advancement of mankind. TMT funded scholarships will advance the education of many Big Island students, quite a few of whom will be Native Hawaiians whose ancestors used astronomy to get here. I find it entirely fitting that those scholars will someday guide humanity to yet more places to explore. While I find some of the objections sincere and well thought out, others seem of a Luddite or "obstruction gives me power" nature. The whole world needs the TMT, and we need it here.

[wino]

Unfortunately I'm one to believe Sp10 has an agenda of not quite being a troll but loves to stir things up where He/She can. It seems he/she is a person that can see plots, hidden agendas, or conspiracy in anything to do with government or what he/she thinks is government related. These are MY feeling. No proof but having read so much of the stuff he/she posts leads me to my conclusion. After having read so many inflammatory posts of various posters on Punaweb you start seeing a pattern in the way a person puts there thought into words. I feel that we've been reading the same rhetoric under other pseudonyms.

By the way.... I'm not bashing here. Just stating an observation.

Now let’s see.... a nice Merlot sounds in order.... Cheers!

[LastTangoInPuna]

Any society will use the latest technology that is available to it. That is why contact with an advanced culture ivariably modifies/changes/destroys a less advanced culture. It is the way of the world.

When exposed to Cook's technology what was the Hawaiian response.
Was it rejected or embraced? A nail and a hammer beats cordage in a lot of situations. Black powder and a musket trumps a spear any day.

If the Ancient Hawaiians had access to the TMT technology would they have used it? Where would they have put it?

I believe they, nay any ancient culture would have used it. They might have thought it was magic, but they would have gotten over it and used it for everything they could think of. And where would it have been placed? On the top of the highest mountain of course.

As for military use....well everything finds it's way into or out of the military, save love, so it is nothing new if/when it happens. Again the way of humanity.

[Greg]

The nail has "Mana" too. It gave power to those who were previously without. Kau'a (slaves)were enabled to craft their own fishooks by bending a nail; previously implements were crafted and controlled by higher classes.

Hawaiian culture has always been receptive to other technologies. Kamehameha with his artillery, Hawaiian surfers and paddlers with NASA inspired laminates, Kumu Hula with lighting and sound systems, Fishermen with outboards and monofiliment and Hawaiian bloggers with their computers. These all enhance Hawaiian culture.

Astronomy is another important part of the Hawaiian culture. In my humble opinion, Hawaiians should be embracing the new technology and demanding their piece of the pie; Scholarships and Jobs.

[Orchidlandguy]

quote:

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Originally posted by wino

Unfortunately I'm one to believe Sp10 has an agenda of not quite being a troll but loves to stir things up where He/She can. It seems he/she is a person that can see plots, hidden agendas, or conspiracy in anything to do with government or what he/she thinks is government related. These are MY feeling. No proof but having read so much of the stuff he/she posts leads me to my conclusion. After having read so many inflammatory posts of various posters on Punaweb you start seeing a pattern in the way a person puts there thought into words. I feel that we've been reading the same rhetoric under other pseudonyms.

By the way.... I'm not bashing here. Just stating an observation.

Now let’s see.... a nice Merlot sounds in order.... Cheers!

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WRONG. This is your 10th post and already you are bashing.
You are inflammatory in this post. What is your agenda? to bash the original poster?

[Orchidlandguy]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomK

Wondered how long it would be before someone posted something about Mauna Kea and the TMT. Not too many surprises but associating the telescopes with the military is a new one, and about as intellectually dishonest as you can get. But it's a free-for-all post. Global warming, sacred places, drinks, the environment, discrimination, ecosystems, you name it, it's there, and not one piece of evidence to back any of it up.

But it's a hodgepodge of thoughts and poorly constructed ones at that. It starts of with the TMT and then immediately goes onto military training. Maybe the poster could start with a connection between those two things because the rest of the post means nothing without that connection.

Tom

http://apacificview.blogspot.com/

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Sincere question to you, Tom:
I don't know squat about this subject, so would like to be educated. You are astronomer, so I respect what you have to say regarding this. Can you go into a bit on why the guy that was quoted is dishonest about what he is saying? This is not baiting, I sincerely don't know enough to even begin to understand this argument and would like to know more. Thanks for your time to help me get it.

[Greg]

Unless some verification of how the Mauna Kea scopes tie in to the military is produced; "Intellectually dishonest" is a fair assessment of such an accusation.


Here's an assumption that's at least a little more verifiable;

Kamehameha's birth coincided with the appearance of Halley's Comet, giving rise to a prophesy that he would one day rule. Can we surmise that early Hawaiian warfare was tied, at least in part, to astronomy?

[TomK]

Orchidlandguy - reread the article and you'll see many attempts to associate the TMT and the telescopes on Mauna Kea with the military and towards the end even talks about non-violence and is implying that the TMT is in someway associated with violence. The whole testimony is supposed to be about opposing a construction permit for the TMT but how come the military are mentioned so often if it's not to associate the two? In my opinion it's an attempt to persuade those against the military to therefore also oppose the TMT.

Since there is no link between the MK telescopes (including the TMT) and the military, it is a dishonest argument and probably better described as a straw man fallacy.

http://apacificview.blogspot.com/

[TomK]

Greg - there were a couple of interesting comments you made today:

quote:

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Astronomy is a good technology for our island. It and other technology have been historically important to the Hawaiian Culture. It would be nice if old scopes were removed to keep the science footprint small, however.

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and

quote:

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Astronomy is another important part of the Hawaiian culture. In my humble opinion, Hawaiians should be embracing the new technology and demanding their piece of the pie; Scholarships and Jobs.

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In answer to the first one, I wonder how you would define an old telescope? At the moment there is a maximum limit that can be built on the summit and since the CSO will be closing the number will remain constant assuming the TMT gets built. But I don't think you can simply use age for this, for instance I work at one of the oldest telescope on MK yet we have just had by far and away our most scientifically productive year. Then again, you may just mean that if a new telescope is built then another must give way for it, and that's a fair position and that is the current position. What complicates this of course is that all the telescopes are run by different organisations, some of the foreign, who certainly aren't going to agree to close and remove their facility just because someone else wants to build a telescope.

As to the second point, I can't speak for the TMT, but if they follow what all the other telescopes have done, and I see no reason for them not to, there will be many very good and well paid jobs available to local folk, especially in the engineering and computing areas (science is more tricky as there are few properly qualified local folk, but positions are generally open for everyone to apply for). My own organisation's workforce, even though it is foreign, is roughly 50% locals. It would likely be much more than that if there were more qualified people on the island. That there aren't is not the fault of the observatories, but they do also bring in a lot of money to the local economy.

I could discuss this in much more depth but I don't want to bore people and I don't have the time right now!

Interesting views in the thread by the way, and very encouraging ones as well I must say!

Tom

http://apacificview.blogspot.com/