Posts: 81
Threads: 5
Joined: Sep 2008
Geothermal is cheap, proven technology and its a closed loop and so does not pump CO2 into the atmosphere.. How do we translate that into lower stable electricity and water rates to working families? Folks in Iceland, and the Phillipines have done this successfully. We should use the most modern methods to map the resource, then we should drill "slim holes" to confirm. The source of the geothermal heat for the first geothermal plant that we visited in the Phillipines was an extinct volcano that last erupted 100,000 years ago.
From Wikipedia...
Magnetotellurics
Magnetotellurics (MT) measurements allow detection of resistivity anomalies associated with productive geothermal structures, including faults and the presence of a cap rock, and allow for estimation of geothermal reservoir temperatures at various depths. MT has successfully contributed to the successful mapping and development of geothermal resources around the world since the early 1980s, including in the U.S.A. and countries located on the Pacific Ring of Fire such as Japan, New Zealand, the Philippines, Ecuador, and Peru.
Geological materials are generally poor electrical conductors and have a high resistivity. Hydrothermal fluids in the pores and fractures of the earth, however, increase the conductivity of the subsurface material. This change in conductivity is used to map the subsurface geology and estimate the subsurface material composition. Resistivity measurements are made using a series of probes distributed tens to hundreds of meters apart, to detect the electrical response of the Earth to injection of electrical impulses in order to reconstruct the distribution of electrical resistance in the rocks. Since flowing geothermal waters can be detected as zones of low resistance, it is possible to map geothermal resources using such a technique. However, care must be exercised when interpreting low resistivity zones since they may also be caused by changes in rock type and temperature....
Don Thomas is in the process of securing a grant to use this process. It will give us a better picture of the resource on the Big Island. But, it will need to be confirmed by drilling "slim holes". The process is the same as drilling water wells which we do all the time. Maybe, we will discover that we have geothermal resources located outside of Puna that is "proven". Oil price doubled twice in the last 11 years. It went from $25 to $50 then doubled again last year to $100 per barrel. It will probably follow this same pattern of doubling every 5 years. We have to find solutions. We have this incredible resource. How do we move forward to benefit all of us? We can do this together.
Posts: 3,188
Threads: 216
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Threads: 5
Joined: Sep 2008
Instead of speculation, we need better information. The other countries have been using magnetotelluric methods for decades. If we had our state MT surveyed, we would be able to make better decisions. Maybe we would find that old volcanoes hold more heat than we think. Waimanalo and Lualualei on Oahu are possible heat sources. We have not used the most modern technology to assess it. The bottom line for me has always been, how do we get lower rates for the rubbah slippah folks. Geothermal is cheap and unlike oil will not rise in price continuously. Folks on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder are the ones who will get their lights turned off first. Too often they are Hawaiians.
Posts: 771
Threads: 37
Joined: Feb 2006
According the hawaiinewsdaily solar is already used for base load. For that to be true wouldn't u have to find a site in the world that never ever subject to cloud cover also be on the equator for year round sun. On the Big Island the cloudless site is the Kona side but don't the mountain block the morning sun? The best site might be that Saddle Road?
Posts: 286
Threads: 202
Joined: Jul 2009
A commercial geothermal power project is expensive. The costs usually end up somewhere around $2-7 million for a capacity of 1 MW. This is included drilling, which is accountable for over half of the expenses. This lead to the recent announcement that Ormat it has come to terms with HELCO to deliver an additional 8 MW of geothermal power.
View this page for all the Pro's and Con's of this type of energy.
http://energyinformative.org/geothermal-...-and-cons/
Articles in this series will periodically examine the ways in which the world is, and is not, moving toward a more energy efficient, environmentally benign future.
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/science/earth/energy.html
The Obama administration has already spent billions on “green energy” companies, with most of them resulting in bankruptcy and massive layoffs. His Green Agenda is not working and he wants even more. For Obama’s 2013 budget proposal, “Programs for advanced research along with energy efficiency and renewable energy account for the biggest percentage increase in spending.”
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal/about.html
This document presents the results of an eight-month study by the Department of Energy(DOE) and its support staff at the national laboratories concerning the technological requirements to commercialize a new geothermal technology, Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS). EGS have been proposed as a viable means of extracting the earth’s vast geothermal resources. (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) contributed to the design and production of this report.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal/p...h_2008.pdf
Revitalized Loan Program:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/busine...icstimulus
Posts: 4,903
Threads: 83
Joined: Feb 2009
"According the hawaiinewsdaily solar is already used for base load."
Did you read this part?
"This type of station is expensive, not because of the raw material we use, which is free solar energy, but because of the enormous investment these plants require," Arias said.
The investment cost exceeds 200 million euros ($260 million)."
The anti geothermal faction wants to shut down PGV.Don't you think it would be cheaper to keep it open and spend some money to insure it is safe ?
Posts: 81
Threads: 5
Joined: Sep 2008
Baseload needs to be stable and steady power. Solar is not base load because the sun does not shine at night. It fluctuates all day as cloud passes over. At the present time, it needs to be subsidized for it to be economical. There are more costs than meets the eye. A lady from Keaukaha complained that solar was not an alternative for her because her house was old and she had to fix the roof before she could install solar panels. She was actually irritated at the elected official who had suggested solar for everyone because he was out of touch with regular folks. Roofers I talk to tell me that they feel that the roofs are going to leak from walking on it to maintain the panels. You will then have to get an electrician to take the panels down and put it back so you can fix the roof. The consumer will end up paying for that. Of course it your are one of the lucky folks who know how to do this, the issues change. But, what about the others? What about hospitals? They have to rely on the grid for their electricity. When electricity costs rise schools get less money per person to educate the kids. There is no base power alternative cheaper than geothermal. Ocean thermal is not proven technology yet. The reason that the Pacific Biofuels model works is the cheap cost of the used oil feedstock. But, we need 50 million gallons per year of highway diesel while we only use 3 million gallons per year of cooking oil. Geothermal is proven technology and the cheapest base power alternative compared to fossil fuel. The folks on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder will get their lights turned off first. That effect will ripple through the economy resulting in less jobs, and shrinking of governments budgets. The social safety net will get smaller and smaller. Exactly what is happening now. It is not about me. it is about us.
Posts: 4,903
Threads: 83
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,779
Threads: 73
Joined: Aug 2006
“According to an analysis by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory,
‘…solar hot water heating is cost effective at any location in the Hawaiian Islands’ …â€
"Solar energy is typically the least expensive method of heating water in Hawai‘i over the lifetime of the system."
"Hawai‘i is one of the few places in the U.S. where the lifecycle cost of photovoltaics is less than that of utility-distributed electricity, which is predominantly based on fossil fuels."
(edited to add first quote(
Source: http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/sun
Posts: 785
Threads: 6
Joined: Apr 2012
quote:
Originally posted by james weatherford
“According to an analysis by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory,
‘…solar hot water heating is cost effective at any location in the Hawaiian Islands’ …â€
"Solar energy is typically the least expensive method of heating water in Hawai‘i over the lifetime of the system."
"Hawai‘i is one of the few places in the U.S. where the lifecycle cost of photovoltaics is less than that of utility-distributed electricity, which is predominantly based on fossil fuels."
(edited to add first quote(
Source: http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/sun
James,
I certainly have no argument against solar hot water heating as being the most efficient method to get hot water. And might agree that you can generate your own power as economically using photo voltaic as drawing on utility power - I'll look at their numbers and see... But there are a couple of practical considerations that everyone touting solar seems to ignore.
1) How many of Hawaii's residents have the spare $35,000 to $60,000 to put down for a set of panels and the battery back up to go completely off the grid? All the talk about "net-metering" is window dressing: the utility can accept only a limited amount of solar power due to it's unreliability. For large scale use of solar as a primary source, individual storage or utility scale storage is unavoidable. With that requirement, the costs of maintaining a system increases significantly until or unless the homeowner battery backup has a useful life that equals the solar panels.
2) For argument's sake, let's say that the homeowner finances the solar system - adding another $35K to $60K to his indebtedness. You are asking the consumer to take a risk - the added indebtedness - that s/he isn't guaranteed to be able to recover: if they have to relocate, for a job or for any reason, will s/he be able to recover the residual cost of that solar system (or be able to find another buyer for whom that system is viewed as an asset, rather than a additional risk, that s/he is taking in purchasing that residence.
3) And more to the point, how many Hawaii residents, and homeowners, are going to be willing to spend the time to fully educate themselves on the operation and maintenance of the "solar package" that they are (completely) dependent on. That's fine for a solar "true believer", but, in my experience, the average homeowner would find changing out their garbage disposal to be an overwhelming challenge (not withstanding the fact that it is illegal for him to do that - which is a whole different set of very serious questions). I've lived off the grid - and user participation,and knowledge, is required. I have no patience for the Hollywood crowd (and the tax-credit crowd, touting solar - when something goes wrong with their solar system, they have their personal assistant call someone who can contact someone who knows how to fix it or make it work. I'm afraid that the average homeowner doesn't have that option - or more seriously, doesn't want to get into a position where s/he will have to fork over the money to get servicing and maintenance that a solar package will require. It may be great for solar true believers to spend the weekend saving the planet and tweaking their solar system - but for the average homeowner who has spent the work week on the daily grind to feed his/her family, that just isn't going to sell.
|
