Facts about the legality of composting toilets

[Bullwinkle]

There is always the incolet option, requires a robust electrical system however......

http://incinolet.com/

[YurtGirl]

The gray water system is what the gentleman in the department of health was referring to; Blackwater being the toilet water, Gray water being pretty much everything else except a hose. So given what he said about gray water needing either a cesspool, septic OR an engineered system showing layers of gravel/cinder/sand/etc., I think in the end, in most places here due to the cost of hauling and aggregate (plus what I wouldn't think would be too much of an engineering fee? KapohoCat?), then I'd guess you're up to about what a cesspool would run, maybe even a septic system, depending on the set up and location. I guess every situation would be a bit different, and some drastically. But in most cases, doesn't seem like it's going to save you any money. Not if you're up to code with it. I've done the composting toilet thing. I much like my flush toilet, but the humanure system works fine in the boonies.

[OpenD]

I kinda started this, by telling YurtGirl about my conversation with the Building Dept a year or so back where they told me that manufactured composting toilets with NSF certification were OKd for use on the Big Island. They did say it needed to be accompanied by a properly engineered grey water system too, yes. But since a third of a typical household's blackwater comes from toilet flushing, it is typical for greywater systems to be able to be engineered smaller, at somewhat lower cost.

The point has been overlooked, however, that the case for composting toilets is not so much about saving money as it is about relieving the ecological strain on the groundwater system... and in some cases, being able to put a toilet where you otherwise could not. That's why the State has been installing composting toilets themselves in state parks and at beaches and remote hiking points all over the islands.

In the same conversation they told me that new cesspools were only being OKd for property zoned for agriculture. If it's a lot zoned for residential, they are looking for a higher standard to be met. This is another part of their effort to meet EPA concerns about groundwater and beach pollution.

[YurtGirl]

Ideally ecological concern is what people have on their minds when they're building... But not always. Not even often. I'm in the yurt building business, it doesn't get much more eco friendly in the housebuilding biz, but it's a small percentage that come to us solely out of that perspective. They want affordability. And when most clients start asking about composting toilets, they are thinking they'll save some serious cash. They aren't thinking about groundwater concerns.

I don't think that composting systems are always better for their surrounding environment. All except an entirely anaerobic or closed system will leach into the surrounding areas. Cesspools and leach fields are engineered to be able to filter the waste to a satisfactory level, with groundwater in mind. It is when they are over burdened, misused, misplaced, or ill designed that we start having issues, and that goes for any of these three systems. The EPA doesn't mess around on these things. If it were a serious risk for contamination, you'd see them locking down right quick and outlawing it for good. Like they do if you have more than one house going to a cesspool. Mega fines and citations...

Most subdivisions here are zoned Ag. HPP, Hawaiian Acres, Eden Roc, Fern Acres, Fern Forest, Royal Hawaiian, Orchidland, etc, etc, etc. All Ag. All accept cesspools unless you're near a waterway or are on less than an acre.

[MarkP]

I think that there are two ways that human waste can cause problems. One is that if it is left exposed on the surface then flies and other vectors can get at it and spread germs. The other is that if it is mixed with water that water can carry germs wherever the water goes, which is usually down to the water table. Meanwhile aerobic microorganisms consume the biologic waste material that causes us humans problems. These microorganisms require oxygen and surfaces on which to live.

The habit of using water to flush waste is only for our convenience. It is good at getting the waste out of the house but later on that water is problematic. The residential septic tank and leach field is the typical solution to the challanges of flushing with water, keeping the waste away from vectors, getting rid of the water, and aerobically treating the leachable waste sufficiently befor it rejoins the water cycle. The cesspool does exactly the same thing except that, being a holdover from when people lived a lot farther apart and didn't generate nearly as much gray water, it (cesspool) offers comparatively little opportunity for aerobic treatment of leachate. What little treatment occurs in cesspools is a fortunate accident, but if cesspools were designed for treatment they wouldn't be narrow and deep like a well.

I think that composting toilets have the potential to be the cleanest ecologically although a properly built septic tank and leach field is clean enough. I think that when you consider that the rain falling on the compost heap is also falling on the ground and draining into the cesspool or leach field, the compost heap will always come out ahead as far as the production of nasty water is concerned as long as there is a cover over the compost heap to divert the rain. I have read more than once that stagnant flood water in populated areas quickly becomes a fecal soup because regardless of whether the neighborhood has city sewers, septic systems, cesspools, or compost heaps, the flood waters allow everything to flow everywhere. At that point everything is connected so it doesn't matter where you have been putting your poop, if you go outside you may cross paths with it again.

Where a proper flush toilet leading to either a septic system or cesspool pulls ahead of a sawdust toilet is that even the least capable members of society usually have some rudimentary toilet training and can flush a toilet. After that both cesspools and septic systems are fairly maintenance free, whereas a sawdust toilet requires further careful operation to get an acceptable result. A commercial composting toilet satisfies the publics desire for something that looks and works like a toilet, with a handle to manipulate and no further "processing" of the waste, and the government's desire to mandate systems that won't spread disease even given incompetent some people can be.

[Bill]

As another idea: www.ecojohn.com

Propane powered toilet.

[YurtGirl]

Well said, Mark! I was all on board until you said "A commercial composting toilet satisfies the publics desire for something that looks and works like a toilet, with a handle to manipulate AND NO FURTHER "PROCESSING" OF THE WASTE, and the government's desire to mandate systems that won't spread disease even given incompetent some people can be"

Because composting toilets, by nature, even if it has a handle, need further 'processing' of the waste, right? Those systems are concerning to me in that, when a person buys a house, or rents a house, there's a lot of room for error if they are too lazy to figure out how and then actually work the system properly. If I had to go with a composting toilet, I'd have to go with the incinolet mentioned above. It's only 'Kind of' a composting toilet...

[OpenD]

It's interesting to me that at one point in history, during the Victorian Era, both the Earth Closet and the Water Closet (WC) were invented at about the same time, and in fact both types were installed in Buckingham Palace and other British royal residences. Had Queen Victoria not shown a preference for the WC, we might not even be having this discussion today, and might, in fact, have had composting toilets as a normal option of everyday life all along.

But finally they are proving themselves in many areas where "blackwater" sewer systems are not practical: where water supplies are problematic, where soil conditions don't support septic systems, where groundwater pollution is an issue, where there is infrequent or seasonal use, where hard ground freeze occurs.

Anyhoosits, here is the current NSF approved list of 40 models of Clivus Multrum (Swedish)and SunMar (Canadian) composting toilets that are OK for use with permit in Hawai'i County. My personal fave, Nature's Head is not on the list yet, but since it is already Coast Guard Class III certified (zero emissions), and is the smallest, simplest, and least expensive non-electric model on the market, AND is US made to boot, I've been encouraging them to go ahead and apply for NSF certification as well. Time will tell.

http://www.nsf.org/Certified/Wastewater/...rd=041#new