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Want Net metering from Helco? You'll have to wait
#11
According to this read they have more than a few problems.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2013/1...lar-power/

Solar power itself is a good thing, but Germany’s pro-renewables policy has been a disaster. It has the absurd distinction of completing the trifecta of bad energy policy:

Bad for consumers
Bad for producers
Bad for the environment (yes, really; I’ll explain)
Pretty much the only people who benefit are affluent home-owners and solar panel installation companies. A rising tide of opposition and resentment is growing among the German press and public.

I was shocked to find out how useless, costly, and counter-productive their world-renowned energy policy has turned out. This is a serious problem for Germany, but an even greater problem for the rest of the world, who hope to follow in their footsteps. The first grand experiment in renewable energy is a catastrophe! The vast scale of the failure has only started to become clear over the past year or so. So I can forgive renewables advocates for not realizing it yet — but it’s time for the green movement to do a 180 on this.

Some awful statistics before I get into the details:

Germany is widely considered the global leader in solar power, with over a third of the world’s nameplate (peak) solar power capacity. [1] Germany has over twice as much solar capacity per capita as sunny, subsidy-rich, high-energy-cost California. (That doesn’t sound bad, but keep going.)
Germany’s residential electricity cost is about $0.34/kWh, one of the highest rates in the world. About $0.07/kWh goes directly to subsidizing renewables, which is actually higher than the wholesale electricity price in Europe. (This means they could simply buy zero-carbon power from France and Denmark for less than they spend to subsidize their own.) More than 300,000 households per year are seeing their electricity shut off because they cannot afford the bills. Many people are blaming high residential prices on business exemptions, but eliminating them would save households less than 1 euro per month on average. Billing rates are predicted by the government to rise another 40% by 2020. [2]
Germany’s utilities and taxpayers are losing vast sums of money due to excessive feed-in tariffs and grid management problems. The environment minister says the cost will be one trillion euros (~$1.35 trillion) over the next two decades if the program is not radically scaled back. This doesn’t even include the hundreds of billions it has already cost to date. [3] Siemens, a major supplier of renewable energy equipment, estimated in 2011 that the direct lifetime cost of Energiewende through 2050 will be $4.5 trillion, which means it will cost about 2.5% of Germany’s GDP for 50 years straight. [4] That doesn’t include economic damage from high energy prices, which is difficult to quantify but appears to be significant.
Here’s the truly dismaying part: the latest numbers show Germany’s carbon output and global warming impact are actually increasing [5] despite flat economic output and declining population, because of ill-planned “renewables first” market mechanisms. This regime is paradoxically forcing the growth of dirty coal power. Photovoltaic solar has a fundamental flaw for large-scale generation in the absence of electricity storage — it only works for about 5-10 hours a day. Electricity must be produced at the exact same time it’s used. [29] The more daytime summer solar capacity Germany builds, the more coal power they need for nights and winters as cleaner power sources are forced offline. [6] This happens because excessive daytime solar power production makes base-load nuclear plants impossible to operate, and makes load-following natural gas plants uneconomical to run. Large-scale PV solar power is unmanageable without equally-large-scale grid storage, but even pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities are being driven out of business by the severe grid fluctuations. They can’t run steadily enough to operate at a profit. [2,7] Coal is the only non-subsidized power source that doesn’t hemorrhage money now. [8] The result is that utilities must choose between coal, blackouts, or bankruptcy. Which means much more pollution.
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#12
Funny - Germany's Kilowatt hour costs about half of Puna - yet they have a problem - grin
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#13
Germany’s residential electricity cost is about $0.34/kWh my last Helco bill was $0.42/kwh.

The point was that they could buy power on the wholesale market for $0.07/kwh.
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#14
We've been on net metering since finishing our house in early 2007.
About half our bills are the minimum payment of $20.50, especially in months with longer days and more sun. Highest one around $80.
We could not afford the $200 to $300 / month others report paying.

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#15
ever spend any time over on the other side of the pond? Its not like here - the social welfare system ensures that low income folks get electricity - rates reflect that .... want green power - one can choose to be supplied only w/green - more expensive however..... light years ahead of the US I like the tech and the autobahn- the people not so much - (opinion)

helco rates - when adding the base fee (s) 50 cents a kwh more like it

Germany's rates are up because they are dumping nukes - transition

Germany's grid, socialized medicine and transportation systems functioning quite well thank you ... hows our roundabout (one) coming along? - grin

My guess would be that Helco is dragging their feet because "there is nothing in it for them" - More of the US biz culture - cheapest bid and short term thinking

really tough to compare a system that has been around since the middle ages to a rock colonized in 1850 as well .... mind blowing to see a city charter founded in ad 1100 --- those folks have had some time in grade - masters of conflict resolution - we could take a page....

and..... if Helco does not have the "room" to add grid tie..... how are they going to feed the pgv power into the system

I call BS on Helco's part

got autobahn - grin
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#16
quote:
Solar only works in the day time (and only on nice sunny days)


This statement is far from the truth, as even my 30 + year old Carrizo quad-lams produce an acceptable amount of power on cloudy days, and the newer panels are even better.
I've been completely off the HELCO grid for over 25 years.
Solar electricity is best suited to a localized system rather than a distributed system using existing HELCO infratructure, so batteries for storage are a no-brainer, and as such my solar power system works quite well at night.

That said, I don't try running heavy inductive loads from my inverter, I use a generator to power washer, dryer, power tools, etc.

A modest stand-alone solar electric system will pay for itself within a few years, after which the power is essentially free, save for system upgrades to batteries etc.

I run my entire household on 8 180w Kyocera PV panels, 4 6v deep cycle batteries, an Outback charge controller, and a 2500w inverter.

Screw HELCO, they don't even serve my road.

"Life is labor, and all that is good in life comes from that labor..."
"Life is labor, and all that is good in life comes from that labor..."
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#17
Who you going to trust? Its really hard to get accurate information on Germany. Try this site (you have to look back a couple of months, but there is a lot of interesting stuff here) http://climatecrocks.com/ for a different view.

Also, here is a report from the electric industry themselves. They are well aware of the threat solar and wind are to their financial model http://www.eei.org/ourissues/finance/Doc...lenges.pdf

Jerry
Jerry
Art and Orchids B&B
http://www.artandorchids.com
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#18
Why would I want Net Metering anyway? Can't I keep my existing Helco hook up and run a solar system that is independent from the grid?
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#19
the chinese dumping settlement and the end of over the top EU subsidies may have had more impact

"In December alone, Germany installed nearly as much solar capacity as the United States has in total, fueled by the subsidies that solar companies admit sometimes made it possible not to worry whether there was sufficient demand in a given area for the power they would produce."

from a 2011 article ....

chinese dumping the panels and the EU doing fiscal stimulus - shrewd buyers could end up with cash to boot - free money always creates a big demand - grin

how does this relate to Hawaii? - .... at that time both the US and the EU held that china was dumping panels - there were tariffs imposed increasing the price per watt to the end user

solar is proven cheap and safe current floor pricing is 0.78 dollar cents per watt ( China had been dumping as low as 0.42 dollar cents per watt) - the floor imposed by treaty - china was accused of producing 20X the annual (world) demand in 2012

If Helco were smart - they'd be selling you (us) the cheap chinese solar panels and providing other services - banking a good start - in house financing ..... but no they would rather give away the pgv farm.... grin

hope that brings us back on topic


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#20
HELCO does do banking. The parent company, HEI, owns American Savings Bank.
http://www.hei.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=101675&p=company-profile

If you wanted a stand alone solar power system you probably need to install a separate wiring system for the solar as your existing wiring being connected to HELCO would require isolation in order to prevent issues.

"Life is labor, and all that is good in life comes from that labor..."
"Life is labor, and all that is good in life comes from that labor..."
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