Haoles and Friends

[Derrick Barnicoat]

A dialect is not the same as "broken english" and as I see it it is always respectful to be as genuine as possible. Trying to learn pidgin and speak it fluently with the locals is a bit phony. IMHO it is better to be natural and speak how you speak maybe pick up a few phrases here and there from close friends or whatever but trying to speak full on pidgin if you are not a part of that culture is just a bit poser ish. BTW jamaicans who speak patois are not thrilled to hear outsiders trying to speak patois. Jamaican patois was developed so that the bourgeoisie class would not be able to understand their conversations. The jamaican accent is different and most jamaicans only have an accent because they are from a british colony and learned british english in school. Most jamaicans don't even speak patois it is basically rastas, anti-establishment folks and street culture folks that use patois.

[Delta9r]

To each their own regarding dialect/inflection/syntax, but Ni'ihau 'Olelo is distinctly different from "University 'Olelo," as mentioned previously different parts of the same island will have slight to obvious variations when describing identical things.

If you'd like to learn the language then http://www.ahapunanaleo.org/ is a good place to begin.

'E ola mau ka 'Olelo Hawai'i!

"Life is labor, and all that is good in life comes from that labor..."

[Kelena]

I am a little like TomK's partner in that it is natural for me to adapt to the local speech patterns. Language and linguistics are of interesting to me --of such interest that I have a degree in a foreign language, with a minor in another. When I lived in New Orleans, I definitely spoke in the local patois and no one tried to show me the door. I was taken for a local, which I was not. When I left New Orleans, I continued talking that way briefly out of habit when I returned to San Francisco. This annoyed my friends and so I pretty quickly re-adapted to speaking local non-fem gay (yep -- it's a separate accent.)

When I lived in France, no one guessed that I was American. It didn't happen. I dressed in Cacheral, grew pale, got very skinnny, pouted, had a man-purse and affected every single mannerism of the French. They usually thought I was Basque, Belgian or Spanish or from the Pyrenees where I first landed in France. My Parisian landlord INSISTED in an exasperated way that I was Spanish even after I showed him my passport. He said "But look at the way you use your hands!" I had been in France less than a year. It is possible he was trying to insult me because I broke a window. Once when I was bored and waiting on a train, I actually climbed into an empty information booth at the Gare du Nord. People would ask me when the next train left and I would glance up at the board and tell them. I passed. My accent was very, very good.

And when I climbed onto the stage at Merrie Monarch after having been here for 4 months and played the very first note of the very first evening after really never having played the ukulele in a serious way, I assure you, I passed as both a local and a musician. In a world rapidly heading for monoculture, local cultures are precious and something to be honored and preserved. I do that by adapting to them and throwing myself into them as quickly as I can. There is nothing fake about it.

And there is absolutely nothing sacrosanct about the local dialect (by the way, it is NOT a different language it is a DIALECT of English, which is why you can understand 90% of it). Dialects are a way of distinguishing one tribe from another, but Hawaii is such a melting pot, I think it is fair to melt into it if you can.

Getting back to the original question, it is absolutely unnecessary to speak Hawaiian in Hawaii to "fit in" (although I intend to make an effort to learn Hawaiian and encourage others to do so as well). English is the predominate language. A local dialect of English called "Pidgin" is how locals recognize one another and is widely spoken here. Short of Pidgin is English that is accented in a sing-song sort of way. It is very common and is a sort of middle ground between mainland English and Pidgin. I sometimes emulate it. I don't do it to fake anyone out. I do it because I am being myself.

Going to exotic and interesting places and insinuating myself into the local culture and learning the language, local accent or dialect is exactly who I am and how I have spent my life. And, to be honest with you, I sometimes look askance at people who sound exactly like the place I left, make absolutely no attempt to adapt to local culture and instead drag over all of their ways along with grandma's hutch (which will disintegrate). What is the point of being here rather than there? I didn't bring there here. I don't mind so much if you do, but please don't mind if I don't.

The next train for Lyon leaves at 17:35. Will there be anything else?

[lavalava]

quote:

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Originally posted by PeterE

However, acquiring fluency is a waste of your time. Phoney pidgin is seen as comical or condescending.

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"acquiring fluency" is not "phoney". If you speak a language fluently you are not phoney - you actually speak the language.

[oceangirl]

quote:

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Originally posted by bananahead

'Hawaiian pidgin' IS NOT 'Hawaiian', its a language now evolved from one developed in the 19th Century by recently arrived Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Puerto Ricans, hapa, etc. sugarcane farm workers to communicate w/ ea. other...

PS most Hawaiians here CANT Speak 'Hawaiian' ... they only know some words, certain words used by EVERYONE here, even Haoles... ie mauka/makai, ono, hana, 'aina, puka, 'okole, aloha, mahalo, lanai, pupu, pau, pono, ohana, kapu, keiki, heiau, etc. etc. and these so called Hawaiians (most are 'hapa') CANT put sentences together or understand someone fluent in 'Hawaiian' like say someone from Ni'ihau, where MOST do still speak Hawaiian everyday...

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save our indigenous and endemic Hawaiian Plants... learn about them, grow them, and plant them on your property, ....instead of all that invasive non-native garbage I see in most yards... aloha

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Ai yai yai! Pidgin may not be formal olelo Hawaii, it is however, a huge part of the culture here. In ancient Hawaii, the Hawaiian language was completely oral. With no written language, history was recorded through chanting and dance, and passed on through generations. Sadly, much of it was lost when the missionaries outlawed the speaking of the language, and Hula dance(because it was so provocative).

PS- I think it is important to respect the fact that "Hawaiian Pidgin" carries with it the spirit of the Hawaiian culture. It tells us a story about the history of this place.

[Bullwinkle]

why try to be something one isnt (fast lane to pidgin) ...while the place we live in celebrates diversity

every region has its local dialect - when I go back to cali for work - Im always overwhelmed at the little changes to culture in the last six months

what ever word conveys the concept works for me .... some local words so very cool - time in grade modifies linguistics imho.


wtf is a fresh and easy or BevMo? grin

[Guest]

Let me make some points for the sake of the obvious.

1- If you take a Middle aged rich white woman and put her on Crenshaw in Compton and ask her to speak slang, she is probably going to come across fake. I dont think we need a bunch of people playing Captain Obvious, to save the day on that one.

2- If I asked my wife to speak Pidgin, or Patois, or any other broken dialect, she would fail miserably, so thus she would never attempt it.


With that out of the way, I myself pick up slang and broken dialects very well. I can go to a business meeting in Trump Towers, change my clothes and go buy weed in Liberty City Miami. Why? Because when you have experienced different parts of life, some people are able to absorb it and become part of it, as I would suspect hanging with people in Hawaii will be.

So, to reiterate the original question.... How long did it take YOU (yes everyone) to be able to speak it comfortably.. 3 months ? 3 years ? Never ?

[Bullwinkle]

my experience has been that the first two years are like being on probation -

employers, friends and social contacts want to see if the newbee stays or bails

me thinks on the east side of the big island its 50/50 ....during my 10 years on Maui - it seemed like cash on hand was a bigger factor in longevity - grin

take it with a pound of salt - but be prepared - my 2 cents

[Carey]

For me, on the bus, I speak a very little pidgin, and I did get many of the street names within a couple of years (though some still trip me up)

However, I have not been in as many situations where pidgin is spoken, though we have many life long & generational Hawaiian friends. It is just that many of our friends that are lifelong/generational Hawaiians do not speak pidgin, at least at home & at the functions we have been to(this was a dialect first used for FIELD workers... until the 50's to late 60's it was more of a big city and field workers dialect.... like the street language you have referred to... it is not spoken by everyone, even those that have generational lineage to the area....

I also would refer many to learn more about the history of this area... little things like the missionaries not allowing the Hawaiian language.... well those statements can confuse some.

The missionaries most think of when they mention them are the ABC missionaries that first arrived in the 1820's... and their mandate was to create the written Hawaiian language for theological and legal transactions...

(ADD more often it was the forbidding of Hawaiian in the boarding schools many went to...mostly by the very young school teachers)

In fact, the Hawaiian language was openly used in legal, religious and entertainment venues (including many Hawaiian Language newspapers) until the overthrow... far different forces outlawed the language than religious ones!

[4antares]

The assumption that locals are going to want to hang with you is flawed. There have been enough peculiar haoles that the locals tend to be wary of new faces. They will interact with you, usually in a polite and friendly manner, but welcoming you into their social circles and lives is another matter entirely. When I lived on Oahu I had a friend, native Hawaiian, local boy to the bone, who tried living here and moved back to Oahu because the locals were so insular and unwilling to welcome outsiders, even natives.
Coming here with preconceptions or expectations isn't a good idea. This ain't the mainland. Or anywhere else.

life is short. enjoy it