Posts: 1,179
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2012
its NOT the point that they cut endemic trees down or that they were the very common Ohia, the POINT is that lying fool Ellis cut down big trees NOT on his property, on state land, and then used them for his profit (building crap he rented out to wwoofers)
If you buy a large cleaned Ohia log legally (from private property), it can cost over $500ea. for a nice large ohia pole.... if you look at all those telephone pole sized logs in that photo from last year when they were debarking and sanding the logs at SPACE/Bellyacres, it doesnt take much of a mind to see that they (Ellis etc.) dont care about the Hawaiian environment at all.... all those trees were 'oldgrowth' 100++ yr old trees, every single one of them in that pic, and everyone that makes up the SPACE building etc.
I was a heavy supporter of SPACE and bellyacres and introduced dozens of newbies to both places (wwoofers and tourists) and even have Ellis and many as friends on FB, but I change my feelings towards that community and those who try to back up Ellis and being sustainable ...thats all bigtime BS!
on top of that the guy was warned years ago, and didnt move on the warnings...
funny/strange thing is now that SPACE is moved to Uncles on Sat morning, now I see that some of Uncles R Kelihoomalu family dont want it there and have posted many messages to boycott/dont support 'OuterSPACE' and the people involved with it.... Id like to hear more why some of the Keliihoomalu clan feel so strongly even before the 1st Sat OuterSPACE...
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save our indigenous and endemic Hawaiian Plants... learn about them, grow them, and plant them on your property, ....instead of all that invasive non-native garbage I see in most yards... aloha
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save our indigenous and endemic Hawaiian Plants... learn about them, grow them, and plant them on your property, ....instead of all that invasive non-native garbage I see in most yards... aloha
Posts: 2,657
Threads: 43
Joined: Sep 2006
It seems clear Graham Ellis/Space/VGS/Belly Acres/Volcano Circus or whatever they call themselves provided a desired service and did some good and has a good deal of community support.
It also seems clear this entity flagrantly and repeatedly broke, and continues to brake several laws and rules despite numerous warnings; unlawfully took possession of public property and did so for their own monetary gain. It also seems clear they generated a fair amount of ill will in the community.
It also seems clear to all that all of the Government agencies involved, if not all Government agencies in general, are inefficient, possibly incompetent, sometimes corrupt and are often open to manipulation by both sides of this dispute by varying methods.
If one accepts those premises then:
1) When a person or corporate entity is engaging good (provides a public service) while also clearly and knowingly engaging in bad (breaking laws and monetarily gaining from such violations) are we justified in overlooking or ignoring the bad?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, then who is the judge and by what scale do we judge.
3) If the answer to #1 is yes then why have laws and rules. Our civilization, if that is what it would remain, would be ruled by the direct majority or largest or strongest mob on any issue, not by laws. It would be quicker than electing representatives to make or change laws we feel are needed. However, it might get a bit messier. I think Justice would suffer.
Sure, like traffic laws, many laws are broken without Justice being applied. Many laws are broken without even notice. Of course if you are noticed by those empowered by us to enforce the laws, most of us do expect to face consequences, be it a traffic fine or whatever. Are we saying in this instance, Space/etc, that because of some real or perceived good they do, they are now above the law? Or because of some governmental inefficiency or oversight they are immune from the law? I'm sure there are some anarchists in Puna who think no law is valid. I'd like to believe that such thought isn't the norm.
4) If the answer to #1 is NO, then Punatics need to accept that the entity was in repeated violation of laws and rules several times over and should be closed for the sake of Justice, if nothing else. Punatics should then unite behind some sane representatives who will work effectively to achieve common goals for Puna, to include proper zoning and permitting, in appropriate locations, for desired services, services that include the "Good" provide by Space.
Puna will never achieve the political power to accomplish the changes it needs if it continues to be legitimately perceived as the home of loons and those who have no respect for the rule of law and the mechanisms of legitimate government. Are there any potential leaders in Puna who will lead, not for their own enrichment or ego, but out of a sense of duty and a desire to enhance the lives of their neighbors?
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Posts: 357
Threads: 17
Joined: Feb 2014
Oink, #3 why have laws and rules? when considering laws and rules I can't seem to get past the Ammon Hennacy quote to the judge during his tax evasion trial " Oh judge, your damn laws, good people don't need them and bad people don't obey them" I can't seem to find a way to dispute that statement. Now that whole tree cutting issue. Seems odd to me if there's proof of this and it's going on for years and no action by authorities, it should garner so much attention now. And what action is now being taken? closing a circus and farmers market? I used to spend a lot of time in the Joyce Kilmer forest in western N.C. true old growth eastern hardwood forest (amazing place) It was made clear if you so much as took a dead twig out of that place you were going to jail. And people did. So my question would be who did what, who is charged with what, and what is the penalty? Reminds me of the old Dragnet show " Just the facts mam" I don't know Graham Ellis, hell I don't know anyone who's ever been to Puna. Just my observations as an unbiased outsider. Now if they had years to comply and didn't, how do you comply to illegal cutting of trees on state land? Dismantle the jungalows and stand the tree's back up? I understand there were other violations but I see little or no mention of them. How serious are these violations that you have years to comply? Don't get me wrong I think if you cut tree's that aren't yours you should pay a price no matter who's tree's they are.
Posts: 14,138
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
Puna will never achieve the political power to accomplish the changes it needs if it continues to be legitimately perceived as the home of loons and those who have no respect for the rule of law and the mechanisms of legitimate government.
They are merely following County's example.
Posts: 199
Threads: 19
Joined: Feb 2010
Earlier someone asked why the SPACE market was moving. Let’s consider this possibility.
Who is responsible for SPACE and SPACE market? – Graham Ellis
Who is being investigated by DLNR? – Graham Ellis
Who potentially will be severely punished by DLNR for massive violations? – Graham Ellis
Who has raised the eyes of, and irritated many locals? – Graham Ellis
Who needs a safe haven to continue his operations? – Graham Ellis
Who decided that Uncle Robert’s, being on declared Hawaiian land and part of the Hawaiian Community could provide the needed safe haven? – Graham Ellis
So, who moved the Market to Uncle Robert’s? – Graham Ellis
So, who really wins in this scenario? Only time and compatibility will tell. Mr. Robert’s gets a new Saturday market with new income potential and Mr. Ellis hopefully gets a safe haven to hide within.
Posts: 1,779
Threads: 73
Joined: Aug 2006
"...Mr. Robert’s gets a new Saturday market..."
Huh?
Whis is "Mr Robert's" --- do you even live in Puna?
Posts: 1,217
Threads: 18
Joined: Jan 2014
How is the new Saturday market? Anybody been?
Posts: 78
Threads: 4
Joined: Jun 2014
Hey James don't you love it when people get actively involved in a local thread and aren't even on the island and haven't even been to the location. Those are the types that like to dominate a conversation and aren't even listening to you when you speak because they are too busy thinking of what they are going to say next.
Posts: 1,406
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Joined: Jun 2013
HERE is another side of the story. (Graham's response to allegations in the BIC)
Posts: 1,217
Threads: 18
Joined: Jan 2014
Just what I expected. To paraphrase Mister Ellis - 'it's not my fault and besides all the complaints we have many fans in the community so leave us alone.'
A politician who missed his true calling...
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