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quote:
Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
Tom,
What would the sky above the illuminated plant look like if were venting the heated volcanic gases as said to be released by the PGV plant manager? Do you happen to know the color of the plants site lighting and what it looks like when it illuminates the released volcanic gases? Was it just Hydrogen or was it hydrogen sulfide mixed with sulphur dioxide and a myriad of other gases? I'll bet you your lunch that volcanic gases can be seen when vented from the plant and I'd also bet they are even more oddly apparent when illuminated by the plant. Orange sky... yes, highly plausible. If it were just hydrogen... no, but were not talking just hydrogen are we, its a volcanically heated system not a hydrogen gas heated system.
More nonsense... why do you insist that there is sulfur dioxide in the geothermal steam? None there. Hydrogen sulfide is a colorless gas - look it up. High pressure sodium vapor lights in a driving rainstorm with or without steam release will look orange. Our idiot news media can't be bothered to distinguish between a steam release and a geothermal gas release and Puna Pono Alliance can't let an opportunity like that pass without exploiting public ignorance of geothermal technology.
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mark,
I'm a PGV supporter and like the fact we have such an energy source available to us. That being said, I am not arrogant enough to proclaim these people are full of bull crap with thier claims regarding exposure to the toxic gases. The gasses that are released flow with the wind and i'll step out on a limb here and assume the release valves are not at ground level but perhaps vent through a stack. Unless a plant employee is down wind of the vent valves and up high enough to get a good inhalation of the gases, they arent going to be affected by the release. For those who happen to be directly downwind of the released gas and where it makes groumd contact in its heaviest concentrations or in areas where the gases may accumilate more heavily due to the topography and wind conditions they may indeed be in a bad situation. It's possible that the conditions could indeed cause death if the conditions are so. Fluid dynamics are a complex issue and when you add toxic gases into the mix it becomes even more complex. There is no simple answer but in my opinion dismissing the claims of those exposed as bogus is arrogant at minimum, down right irresponsible if in a position of authority over the matter. They're symtoms are in line with the gases they were allegedly exposed to. I think if anything, its time for better guidlines to be implimented with regard to safety measures. It now obvious that the plant needs to shut down with approaching heavy storms or the main transmission lines need to be buried.
Typos are tablet related.
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quote:
Originally posted by geochem
quote:
Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
Tom,
What would the sky above the illuminated plant look like if were venting the heated volcanic gases as said to be released by the PGV plant manager? Do you happen to know the color of the plants site lighting and what it looks like when it illuminates the released volcanic gases? Was it just Hydrogen or was it hydrogen sulfide mixed with sulphur dioxide and a myriad of other gases? I'll bet you your lunch that volcanic gases can be seen when vented from the plant and I'd also bet they are even more oddly apparent when illuminated by the plant. Orange sky... yes, highly plausible. If it were just hydrogen... no, but were not talking just hydrogen are we, its a volcanically heated
system not a hydrogen gas heated system.
More nonsense... why do you insist that there is sulfur dioxide in the geothermal steam? None there. Hydrogen sulfide is a colorless gas - look it up. High pressure sodium vapor lights in a driving rainstorm with or without steam release will look orange. Our idiot news media can't be bothered to distinguish between a steam release and a geothermal gas release and Puna Pono Alliance can't let an opportunity like that pass without exploiting public ignorance of geothermal technology.
More arrogance, http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/pha/pha.asp?docid=1036&pg=0
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Geochem,
It isn't the news service or rather the storm chaser on the ground who gave bad information. Its the listener who assumed they were talking about orange hydrogen gas and not simply the lights from the plant. That was my point and there is hydrogen sulfide in the gas well, it may not be the most abundant gas but its there and was cited as one of the myriad of gases within the well. Its a damn volcano for f sakes.
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I don't know what happened and I don't know exactly how this plant works but most steam turbines, when suddenly relieved of their load, would over-speed unless steam was cut. Most steam plants have too much stored pressure and heat to just stop the fuel so steam must be vented as well. I don't know if the steam from the wells is used directly or used to boil pure water for the turbine. I bet it is the latter because the system would be more tolerant of fouling of the heat exchangers than of the precisely balanced turbine, plus they would employ multiple heat exchangers allowing cleaning and repair of one at a time. As such it is to be expected that during a loss of load from a downed transmission line there would be a release of steam. Steam is invisible but it would almost instantly condense into a cloud. I think this happened at Kahe power plant because of the earthquake and many people freaked out thinking there was something bad happening but it was only what anyone knowledgable would have predicted and you would not have been able to tell what was in the cloud.
So there was a cloud of condensed steam. There basically had to be. Was it steam vented from the well with whatever contaminants or pure steam or both? If it contained noxious contaminants such as H2S so be it and shame on me if I have disputed the possibility. Nevertheless it is clear that the reporter does not know the meaning of shame for claiming he could see hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide or sulfer dioxide or anything mix of colorless gasses inside a pure white cloud, at night, and shame on anyone who can not cheerfully join me in pointing this out. That cloud might have been full of radioactive fallout, anthrax, and bat farts but the presence of a cloud of steam over a plant with a steam turbine that has just lost it's load is completely unremarkable. It would be remarkable if there had been no cloud (assuming that the cloud coincided with loss of the transmission line). Equally unremarkable would have been the color of the cloud as long as it was the same color as the site lighting which is often if not usually orange. I am assuming that this occurred after dark. If so then there are these three of possibilities:
The cloud was illuminated by site lighting.
The cloud was glowing or emitting its own light.
The cloud was invisible due to darkness or was so faintly illuminated by moonlight that color could not be determined.
Since the cloud was described as orange I rule out moonlight. I also discount the possibility that it was glowing. That leaves site lighting. Really as soon as the reporter described color he lost his credibility.
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Lol Mark,
I like your examples at the end. From what I've read and heard from the officials etc, the plant was taken offline by the fallen trees. The plant uses a closed loop to turn the turbines that is heated by the well loop. The released gas from my understanding is from the heat source loop but the turbine loop is not released as its some other fluid. Ask geochem, he knows that aspect and im not going to read through all that again. The heat source loop was released and that has all the crap in it and it was scrubbed with caustic soda during release. Yes it has the hydrogen sulphide in it along with other nasty crap, hence the need for the caustic soda. In any case obviously water vapor/steam was heavily present and within it all the crapola. Its a shamed that they didn't shut down. Trees will fall. It must have been really scary for those exposed to it atop the storm and all. BTW... reading the quote of the reporter/storm chaser, they simply stated the sky was orange above the plant and some loud noise coming from it and fire trucks out front or something (from what I read) there may have been more to it though. Yes, the well loop contains more than steam and no officials dispute its release or its toxicity, that appears to be exclusive to a select few here on Punaweb who claim it never happend or it was just a steam release.
Also keep in mind the power was out and several of the gas sensors went offline and remained that way for some time. So the claims of 0ppm/ppb are based on lost data. I guess people forget that such data is often reliant upon its surounding infrastructure.
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Chas stated: I'm in Pennsylvania.... maybe it's from TMI!
LOL!! Chas, 1976, Legionnaires Disease outbreak at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel. I was there at the hotel, with the Hawaii Visitors Bureau (at a trade show, spreading Hawai'i aloha) when it happened!!! OMG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philad...e_outbreak
It's all our (those who were there with me) fault; the "bug" came home to Hawai'i with me. Maybe it's not the geothermal plant's fault!
(Sorry, off topic, couldn't resist, love PA. Carrying on.)
JMO.
P.S. That was one of the most beautiful hotels that had the essence of dignity and history. (Auwe, I digress, apologies again.)
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Bob wrote:
"[...] and perhaps you have forgotten about the suns many cme's at the precise right time to pretty much change everyone's predictions about Ison. [...]"
CMEs and Comet ISON are unrelated. CMEs were going on before ISON came near the sun and continued afterwards, and it's only the incredulous who think a tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity. ISON's approach to the sun did not change predictions about the comet or Solar activity, only yours and a few other fruitcakes who know nothing about the science.
Remember how you were saying it might affect other planets even after ISON had been completely destroyed? How did that work out?
You're a fear monger, that's all there is to it. You belong in the 16th century, you'd do very well there.
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Dear Tom
NASA Confirms ISON Debris To Hit Earth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dCJID7HWtY This link worked originally - it doesn't now - go figure, by the way I am sure Tom , that you would have pointed that out, as well if it wasn't Nasa you would have pointed that out as well.
"CMEs and Comet ISON are unrelated. CMEs were going on before ISON came near the sun and continued afterwards, and it's only the incredulous who think a tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity"
Um - according to this video that is still available as I write this ( A newscaste - (NASA PERPLEXED BY COMET ISON'S ERRATIC PERFORMANCE AS IT PLUNGES TOWARDS THE SUN (NOV 15, 2013)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fza5qSVQCQ0
about Comet Ison and that nasa doesn't know what will happen as it passes close by the sun.
Promising Comet ISON Gives Perplexing Performance En Route to Sun
Comet ISON continues to befuddle observers with its performance en route to the sun."
http://www.space.com/23417-comet-ison-pe...g-sun.html
"incredulous who think a tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity"
Um you got it back ward (wrong again Tom) - not the comet affecting the sun but the sun affecting the comet. That tiny lump of ice isn't going to affected by the close path around THE SUN?(730,000 miles (1.2 million kilometers)
"CMEs and Comet ISON are unrelated. CMEs were going on before ISON came near the sun and continued afterwards, and it's only the incredulous who think a tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity".
A big DUH for the above- I never even implied that-"tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity". You sem a bit be-fuddled to me.
umm, how come CD is providing Generators worth big bucks to a company that rightly should have it's own generator's)?
More related to this than the above rebuttal to Tom's befuddelment is the HTH statement : Civil Defense is providing PGV with GENERATORS umm, how come CD is providing Generators worth big bucks to a company that rightly should have it's own generator's? Doesn't anyone want to comment on this as it does seem odd to me that the county would do something for a company that should have been already equipped with generators for all the important things that could go wrong in an emergency , and which did go wrong.
Mark Twain
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics
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Bob,
" A big DUH for the above- I never even implied that-"tiny lump of ice had anything to do with solar activity". You sem a bit be-fuddled to me."
As shown in another thread, you appear to be having some memory issues. From your post on 11/27/13:
http://www.punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17309&whichpage=3
" Ison approach to sun triggers CME: (Today) Call it a coinky - dink occurence?
http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=2127810"
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