09-10-2014, 05:21 PM
@Derrick. Disagree. Scientists don't believe. They intuit, and then measure, to the best of their ability.
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Goddess Pele
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09-10-2014, 05:22 PM
quote: Gaia.....oh really! Is that what you call it? How interesting! quote: [:0][:0][:0]
09-10-2014, 05:53 PM
quote: Perhaps scientists don't believe, though I think some scientists get caught up in believing. I can agree most scientists aren't caught up in beliefs and are comfortable with attempting to not only intuit, measure and even debunk their own theories. I actually love science and the practice of it in addition to my love of history and mythology (I think their are bridges between spirituality and science) but my point was more about people who aren't scientists. I find the general population of people who prattle on about science merely have faith and belief in it when in reality science is about questioning everything. Many people who talk about science treat it like they are devoted to the religion of science. The truth is science is a language to describe the natural world. It is not actually the natural world nor is it the creator of the reality around us. So the concept of spirituality does not have to be diametrically opposed to the concept of science. Together they are more powerful. They are the result of the same human impulse but they use a different scope or vernacular to describe the same phenomena. Just to bring it back around, it is like dealing with natural disaster in this community, if these elements can be combined the results are much more powerful.
09-11-2014, 03:13 AM
To Wakan (and anyone else who may have been offended): Sincerest apologies for the suggestion I made about offering human sacrifices to Pele. I thought my disclaimer in the OP made it clear that it was written purely in jest, but perhaps it was a matter of bad timing (with disaster looming)that made the remarks hurtful.
For the record, I never stated that I did not believe in the Goddess Pele, nor were any disparaging remarks made to the beliefs and customs of the peoples of Hawaii. Though I don't consider my self "religious" in the traditional Western sense, I am very much in touch with the spirits that abound. Regardless, I'm sorry. Mahalo. Todd
Todd
09-11-2014, 04:19 AM
Yes Gaia....or mother earth...or mother nature or whatever you want to call it. But don't be a tool bag and try to mix up the difference between putting a NAME to a force, or putting a CONCIOUSNESS to a force.
You can name nature anything you want, call it the spaghetti monster if it so suits you. When you give it a consciousness, and try to say that lava is Pele, a living conscious thought having decision making being, that's where you lose it. I respect Gaia, (read as I respect mother nature) but Earth isn't conscious. It reacts to actions based on the biology and terrestrial structure of the planet.It doesn't think, it does. You don't need to thank mother earth with a prayer, you need to not litter. See the difference ? Its not about thoughts, because earth does not think. It is about the action of not littering because earth reacts to actions. You thank Pele for listening ? really ? You think there is a magical lava god that LISTENS to you ? SMDH. I have some magical fairy dust to sell you, only $1,000 a gram. Sprinkle it on your shoes and ask the magic fairies to listen, and you will never step in dog **** again ! lol. Ok, all jokes aside. Religion and beliefs are like a wee-wee. Its great if you have one, but you cant run down the street showing it off or trying to shove it down peoples throats. Side note - Science is great because it always considers new facts and is always changing, unlike mythical or religious beliefs that shun new facts or info. Also, WAKAN. Thank you, you basically articulated all Ive been trying to say. I myself don't really have the patience or tact for that, I am more of a, stop messing around and go for the jugular kinda guy. So thank you, sometimes you do get more bees with honey.
09-11-2014, 08:36 AM
Todd H--
Todd, I was not at all offended by your tongue-in-cheek comments about human sacrifice. To the contrary, I found your rather pushy sarcasm to be one of the funniest things I've yet read on the site. And it didn't escape me that buried beneath the surface of your humor, there was a more serious issue. I was attempting to respond in kind to your humor in the first paragraph of my post--I was in no way criticizing you. As far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to apologize for, and I hope you continue to express your intelligent and uncensored views. And I thought your comments were entirely appropriate to a thread titled "Pele". As any anthropologist will confirm, human sacrifice was a very common practice among pre-literate cultures. It was far from an isolated cultural phenomenon, and its almost universal, widespread prevalence in ancient times is enough to make anyone interested in the genetic/cultural roots of human behavior squirm. It begs the question whether this type of human to human brutality is genetically inherent to who we are or whether it is an invention of human culture. Regardless of the answer, it's prevalence in ancient times, certainly reveals a dark side to Human culture in general, and more specifically, to Hawaiian culture. Human sacrifice is far enough in our past now--and so far removed from our modern sensibilities--that we should be able to easily joke about it. If your joking about it touched any raw nerves, it only demonstrates that the issue needs to be aired out and relieved of any toxic overtones. I'm sure that no sane member of our modern society would support or advocate the practice of Human sacrifice; but as today's Hawaiians work for a revival of Hawaiian culture, this is an issue they need to confront head on. And since I'm sure the idea is as repulsive to them as it is to anyone else, I suggest they clearly and unambiguously articulate what elements of their ancient culture are to be retained in their cultural revival and what parts are to be rejected. As I've made clear in other posts, I'm not preaching to the Hawaiian people about how they should define their culture--it's just my reflection. But if they want to be true to themselves and if they have any interest in how others perceive their culture, it would probably be a good idea to acknowledge the thousand-pound-gorilla-in-the-room. One of the things that I appreciate about this space is that it provides a forum where community members of all stripes come together to discuss serious issues. I'd go so far as to say it's really the only place where such a cross section of Puna's diverse society really interacts. There seems to be active posters of all cultural and political persuasions active on the board; and although there are some strongly, opposing views being posted, it is a pretty civil dialogue. Raw nerves may be touched occasionally; and sometimes people may go a little over the line in expressing their views (myself included), but there seems to be a sensitivity to the feelings of people with opposing views and a desire of the majority to keep the threads from devolving into unconstuctive diatribes or just plain **** slinging. Today, we live in a very polarized society--witness the general political impasse between the Right and Left (or attend just about any local community association meeting in Puna's subdivisions). This forum seems to be a welcome anomaly to that situation. I also appreciate that, along with the discussion of serious issues, there is an equal part of humor to lighten things up. I often find myself chuckling as I read some posts, and I appreciate the levity. As when I read Todd H's post on Human sacrifice, or when Oneself quipped "I'm grabbing my popcorn for this one", or when Kelena (responding to a spot-on post suggesting that if it was Honolulu at risk there wouldn't be any debate about bombing a volcano) suggested that there are no goddesses on Oahu. Thanks to everyone who who contributes to this forum for keeping it real.
09-11-2014, 01:20 PM
Well once again you have let me down Oneself. In times like these we need to come together, please try not to divide us anymore than we already are. You remind me of this rooster who sits on his tin roof all night crowing at all hours of the night. The crow is often negative or very offensive to others, could we tone it down a bit. Some things you think could and should be kept to yourself, yet I catch myself plenty so I understand mistakes can be made bro.
09-11-2014, 03:06 PM
From my perspective we are all just one element, a product, of the world around us. To me, the unaware and unconscious people see and experience exactly that in the reality that revolves around themselves. Once an individual begins the journey of awakening from the sleepwalking state the world will awaken with you and consciousness can be seen everywhere especially in nature. I am obviously not Hawaiian so I can not speak about the stories of Pele but I do not doubt the consciousness and awareness that is involved with volcanos. It is palpable on that island. I can see overall that nature is the ultimate consciousness on this planet. Nature brought us into this mortal life and can take us out and her consciousness is expressed in so many ways. I think Pele is an expression of this universal consciousness that flows through everything so I can only show respect.
This reminds me of some of the symbolism you can find in the movie "There Will be Blood". It parallels oil with blood and presents the oil industry as one big blood ritual, which it is. If you don't believe me look at the havoc and sickness that the oil industry has brought upon the earth and all the living things that dwell upon it. The earth is a body, lava is the birth of this body, oil is the blood of this body. You mess with this there is going to be very bad results. You can't control or run from nature as we are just a small part of it. All you can do is show it love, respect, consideration and awareness. Nature will reflect this right back at you. Consciousness is the same through out all of existence. It is consistent. Your own consciousness is the same as natures consciousness. Respect nature as you respect yourself and vice versa.
09-11-2014, 03:58 PM
Well I can see the "volcano whisperer" has come out with more information about Pele, a wrinkled old woman or Katy Perry thank goodness maybe now that we know what she looks like we can ask for the lava flow to stop, NOT. Oneself I must admit that you have held your own and withstood the personal attacks with stoic fortitude as they are, after all coming from "armchair commandos" which want nothing to do with progress unless it directly benefits them at absolutely no cost. I completely agree with trying to divert the flow with the new technological tools available to us that are not on average 40 years old. This may even help save lives in other areas of the world and given the relatively slow flow of the lava plus the low population density makes you a little more "expendable" and therefore perfect candidates for developing new ways of lava deceleration/stall and to develop better evacuation procedures/protocols (yes this to all of you out of the grid dwellers). You chose to live in cheap land with low tax rates and a deep hatred of "outsiders" even though other than lava rock everything on this island has been imported from another land. And to be honest the infrastructure you possess is not even remotely worth saving other than the telescopes and they are not in harms way so all is well. HVO was designed having in mind that one day it shall be engulfed in molten rock or sink to the ocean floor. About Katrina, anyone who lives there in New Orleans or any other EXTREMELY storm surge vulnerable area is not very logical or has very little common sense. The location should have been deemed uninhabitable after Katrina and left as is instead of pouring more money into a non defensible location (with rising oceans and Mega hurricanes being generated more often and no I do NOT mean chemtrails I mean just global warming and recent all around weather pattern changes). Aloha begins with you are not welcomed here foreigner 'Your whole idea about yourself is borrowed-- borrowed from those who have no idea of who they are themselves.'
'Your whole idea about yourself is borrowed-- borrowed from those who have no idea of who they are themselves.'
09-11-2014, 04:05 PM
Anyone who wants a free, if condescending, lecture on why no one should have ever been so stupid as to moved so close to Madam Pele, and deserves whatever she dishes out, should call Governor's Liaison Office and ask for Wendy (974-6262/974-6265). She will set you straight. She informed my wife this morning: "You were the one who decided to move to Puna." Apparently, when we moved here we waived all taxation/representation rights. According to Wendy, the Governor's hand-picked representative, we just have to submit to Pele's will and suffer the consequences for our stupidity. Don't take my word for it, call Wendy she's really knowledgeable on the subject and oh so compassionate.
Un Mojado Sin Licencia
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