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The company was a division of United Technologies, but they spun off their Fuel Cell division. It is, however, an established technology and industry. They would strip off the Carbon from Methane and use the remaining Hydrogen to "power" the cells.You have to have a substantial and reliable source of H to do this, and they used Natural Gas, aka methane, (CH4) quote:
Originally posted by csgray
Someone is doing this in Hawaii? On the Big Island? Where?
Carol
Every time you feel yourself getting pulled into other people's nonsense, repeat these words: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Polish Proverb
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Yes OnoOno,
Micro could be a cluster of houses with a more modest energy plant; Or a cluster of businesses/Hospitals/schools etc wit a larger generation output.
In rural areas like Puna, the grid is unwieldy.
The first step: Change the law to allow competition with HELCO, then let the natural process/progress occur.
This discussion has been fun, but I'm outa this thread; Best wishes to you!
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And to you as well.
Don't forget to keep us updated on your progress and any obstacles you might encounter on the way. You might want to start with a backup generator as your power source, although I don't know if they are designed for continuous use. An LM1500 with the enhancement of ceramic-coated first stage turbine blades, will run continuously for months and months, given a clean supply of oil. Run it at 6,500 rpm and you have a winner for many years.
You might find that HELCO is anxious to shed Puna from its service area given the obstacles and related issues, such as hot lava, so getting authorization might not be so hard after all.
Keep us posted ][ ]
quote:
Originally posted by snorkle
Yes OnoOno,
Micro could be a cluster of houses with a more modest energy plant; Or a cluster of businesses/Hospitals/schools etc wit a larger generation output.
In rural areas like Puna, the grid is unwieldy.
The first step: Change the law to allow competition with HELCO, then let the natural process/progress occur.
This discussion has been fun, but I'm outa this thread; Best wishes to you!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
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In case you haven't noticed, Helco has been moving away from the electricity generation business and begun to focus on the distribution part instead. They have been encouraging other companies to pay for the investment in wind, geothermal, solar, tide, etc. and they simply distribute the power. It gets them out of the large capital investments that are needed - and the risk - that goes with building new sources of power generation. It is a very smart move.
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There will be no more geo plants in lower Puna. Regardless of what is written here, it would be an intolerably risky investment. PGV is not movable, as has been suggested. And to claim that our only choices are geo or more oil wars shows a complete lack of understanding of modern energy options. There are renewable energy sources that poison people, and renewable sources that are safe.
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I don't know of anyone who has been poisoned directly by a power plant, but lots of people die every year from exposure to cold or heat from not having power. Not in Puna, per se, but on Mainland and elsewhere, and with the Earth's naturally-occurring climatic changes coming into play, we may well be entering into a period of global cooling, so power will be even more essential.
Do you have a particular technology, that will NOT be blocked by the Militant Enviros, that will actually work on a paying basis (bearing in mind that if it won't "pay", it will never "play" (nobody doesn't anything substantial merely out of the goodness of their heart - profit drives everything - including juice).)
quote:
Originally posted by Mendo
There will be no more geo plants in lower Puna. Regardless of what is written here, it would be an intolerably risky investment. PGV is not movable, as has been suggested. And to claim that our only choices are geo or more oil wars shows a complete lack of understanding of modern energy options. There are renewable energy sources that poison people, and renewable sources that are safe.
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HELCO can do things that individuals can't as has been mentioned. They have deep pockets with which to re-build systems whereas homeowners generally don't. Their emissions are regulated. They have spill containment. When a 5,000 gallon tanker transfers its load to the power plant storage tank they rarely spill as much as a gallon. When I fill my little honda 2 gallon tank I have often spilled as much as a tablespoon. That's 1 in 512. That's 10 times as bad and it often goes on the ground. When my friends and I used to go fishing we would run the little honda days on end without an oil change. The utility takes far better care of their equipment. Their systems are generally more efficient than a homeowner's generator. As has already been mentioned by others, not everyone is up to the task of maintaining their own system. If everyone ran their own power systems there would be gas and oil on the ground and in the groundwater and pollution in the air.
There are reasons for being unhooked from the grid. Ask a survivalist if it wouldn't be cheaper just to depend on the grid for power to his BOL (bug-out lodge). After he got done gagging he might be able to tell you of the benefits of being off grid. Being cheap isn't one of them. Neither is being easy.
My ideal situation would be to have a hybrid system that can stand alone getting power from solar panels during the day and the grid at night. This would have more benefit in places where there is a savings for having interruptable power. On Oahu HECO will hook your water heater up to a switch they control and give you a break on your bill. I would trickle charge my batteries all night long on this feed. In this scenario the batteries would be very gently used and would last as long as possible. If the worst should happen I would still have power. I would not be dependent on HECO or HELCO in that I would keep on going when they went down. How would that compare to what I do now? I would hardly ever run the generator. I would spill hardly any fuel and dispose of very little oil. NO noise. Would I hook up to HELCO now since I already have a solar system in place? Depends on if I had the money. I would buy many things for the mere satisfaction of possessing them and having yet another power supply, particularly one as clean and trouble-free as grid power would be one of them. I would still keep the generator though, exercising it once a month to keep it internally rust free.
As for being tied to my neighbors through a micro-grid, never. That would be trading a large and powerful partner who was skilled and equipped to keep their equipment running for a ragtag group of dreamers whom you were dependent on but whom you couldn't fire when they didn't perform. In my current off-grid status I only have to manage myself.
Edited for math errors.
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Between the anti-geothermal and religious solar panel walking commercials, my memory is not so short as to forget that long rainy period we had earlier in the year, multiple storms, and the solar panel people suddenly shut up for about 3 weeks. Then, as the sun started shining again, just as with range roosters, the crowing starts up again.
These climate changes can't be generalized beyond a broad sense. One, we are getting much fewer trade winds. The east wind is pretty constant though. It could suddenly turn much wetter, with the weeks of rain Hilo used to be known for. Then, where is your "off the grid" solar PV? We know, everybody fires up their generators.
So, please, where is the "grid is dead" power distribution system which so many of you prattle on about? If you are thinking of Tesla's wireless transfer of power, think about this. Have you been by a large Tesla coil over 6 feet tall? It basically throws lightning bolts to transfer power over a few feet. Those bolts come with a piercing crack sound, crackling. Now, imagine what Tesla was trying to build, a Tesla coil over 300 feet tall. With his experiments at Colorado springs, he was able to transmit power wirelessly over 20 miles with a 150 foot tower. Think of the lightning bolt sonic booms coming from a 300 foot towere. Also, his tower only transmitted power, it was not a power source. He was going to feed it from generators at Niagra falls.
So, where is this no-grid power source that seems to be a constant babble here and other Hawaiian energy forums.
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quote:
Originally posted by OnoOno
The company was a division of United Technologies, but they spun off their Fuel Cell division. It is, however, an established technology and industry. They would strip off the Carbon from Methane and use the remaining Hydrogen to "power" the cells.You have to have a substantial and reliable source of H to do this, and they used Natural Gas, aka methane, (CH4)quote:
Originally posted by csgray
Someone is doing this in Hawaii? On the Big Island? Where?
Carol
Every time you feel yourself getting pulled into other people's nonsense, repeat these words: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Polish Proverb
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono'ono said: In fact a guy in the warehouse next to mine works with a company that builds and installs fuel cells that use hydrogen, as I recall.
Where is this guy who does this located? Hawaii, the Big Island? You still didn't say.
Carol
Every time you feel yourself getting pulled into other people's nonsense, repeat these words: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Polish Proverb
Carol
Every time you feel yourself getting pulled into other people's nonsense, repeat these words: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Polish Proverb
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The company is nationwide, but this staging warehouse is in SoCal. This is not a technology for Mom & Pops, but, rather, corporations with significant muscle.
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