We Support TMT - Please sign the petition

[TomK]

"10) Because you Tomk, would not invite me up to your castle atop maunakea as if you were king or guardian and got to pick and choose your guests."

I'll address your other points later, but this is one I object to.

I have offered tours to the summit and observatories to Punaweb folk. Only one or two took any interest, and they got the tour. At my expense. They enjoyed it. Now you get upset because I didn't invite you? I know I said I'd forget it, but you made a threat of violence to me. Why would I invite you to the summit?

I'm so sorry you are upset about this, but like any sensible person, I make a choice about who I want to be in close contact with, and you aren't one of them. But that was after my invites to the summit.

So please, put a sock in it.

[Lodestone]

Dream date, Tom! []
http://www.memecenter.com/fun/800019/crazy-women

[snorkle]

It may be necessary to desecrate this planet if it can lead to the discovery of other planets for us to desecrate when this one is uninhabitable.

Just like fast food, cheap plastic products, and conveniently spraying poison;

We have adopted the new mantra; This Earth is Disposable, find me a new one!

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

they can always go back to wherever they came from
This Earth is Disposable, find me a new one!

If we each get to determine the "sweet spot" where earth and it's human population were in perfect harmony, I would like to suggest about 100,000 years ago. Most of us will go back to Africa (even though most of us have never been there), Europe is returned to the Neanderthal (or in this case homo sapiens who have what appears to be the maximum of 4% Neanderthal DNA in their genetic makeup, and Hawaiians can head back to Polynesia.

Because as dakine says, "What's wrong with that?*"

*What's wrong is that any random time you choose other than the present, is unworkable.

[Wao nahele kane]

Dakine,

Perhaps you could explain to me the difference between pre King Kamehameha and post King Kamehameha.
Who was responsible for creating a "Kingdom" out of the Southern islands of this archipelago, was it the USA?
Can you describe to us the difference between the former Chiefs homes and those buildings that stood thereafter under the Kingdom?
Who ordered the changes in these islands that affected their former traditions pre Kingdom? Was it the United States?

You talk about reparations as if the people of these Islands were directly invaded by the United States and slaughtered and conquered like the Native Americans. Is there a battle wherein the United States came to these Islands and declared war with its inhabitance that I'm NOT aware of? I do recall some European nations that came and battled the Islands and I believe the U.S. stepped in and made them back off? Is that somewhat correct?

So here's my point Dakine. The sovereignty of these islands and the alteration of its peoples cultures were in fact not removed by an official act of the United States. That happened over a long period of time and long before the territorial annexation and partially conducted by its own peoples hands through some opportunities and influences brought to the Islanders from Western civilization.

The battle for the Hawaiian Islands began many centuries before the coming of Captain Cook and they continued thereafter by several foreign nations pre annexation and post annexation. Now here today during a period of semi world peace, the decedents from a period of these Islands dating back to only a short period of these Islands human inhabitation history want the United States to provide them with reparations. Reparations for what?

The United States has invested a great deal of resources into these Islands for many purposes inclusive of reparations such as native language restoration education and a whole lot more. Some of these reparations aren't even things the U.S. is responsible for. Yet you expect one country to bear the full blame for something that occurred over many years over 100 years ago? Some of these things that the Islands native ancestors are directly responsible for themselves.

So let's get this straight. With the exception of those who lived in Hawaii pre 1959, the remainder are all natural born U.S. citizens and have been afforded the same rights as the rest of the citizens throughout the United States. None of you have been locked up, detained or kept from engaging in your cultural practices. You're citizens of a sovereign nation that through its Constitution has been outlined to even protect your rights. What is it that you think you deserve above the rest of your peers in this nation? You're not Native Americans and your ancestors where not subjected to the same hardships suffered at the hands the United States like theirs were. Your ancestors losses were in part by their own hand under their own oversight in a land that has always been under threat of invasion and still is to this very day.

To me, this sounds more like a bunch of belly archers (many of which aren't even native) who want to see what financial windfall they can muster built on the sympathies that are in fact held for a people who's ancestors did suffer immeasurable hardships by the hands of the United States back on the mainland. I see exploitation and divisiveness in the movement. The movement itself has said that these issues are not about indigenous Native Hawaiians yet then they turn around and proclaim cultural interest to validate their protest of the TMT. Nonsense. Use the indigenous Native Hawaiians card when convenient but then turn around and claim it's not an indigenous native issue. I see a very dark element here and I see that once again the indigenous native people of these Islands are being hoodwinked and manipulated by a shady few. What else should we expect, it's been done for centuries here. The future history will flesh out as much with regard to these events as it has with previous history here.

I would hope the true indigenous natives of these Islands could see through the deceptions of the movement and join together to form an alliance with one another and return to talks with the interior and not allow the opportunity to pass them by.

[PaulW]

gypsy69, nobody needs to invite you to Mauna Kea. You can get in your car and go there anytime you want
(when your protestors aren't illegally blocking the road).

That's another of the many benefits of having the telescopes there - where else in the world can you drive up to 14,000 feet and enjoy the view so easily?

You should show your ramblings to your family members, I think you need help.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

but would allow a 180 foot Godzilla

Why do so many of the anti-TMT protesters seem surprised at the size of the telescope? It's in the name: THIRTY METER TELESCOPE.

What happens when they order a $5 Footlong at Subway? Do they complain a 12" sandwich is just too big to eat? Are they shocked when they find out the answer to the old joke "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?"

[Wao nahele kane]

My only sympathies are for the indigenous peoples of these Islands and do not extend to a Nation or Kingdom that was conceived through the foreign manipulations of the indigenous peoples wherein the same kingdom/nation manipulations occur to this very day. It was the very notion of creating a Kingdom that lead to the removal and disposal of the indigenous peoples sovereignties and cultures in these islands commencing under its own peoples hands. That notion needs to be exposed and removed for consideration by the indigenous peoples of these islands and the sooner the better, a kingdom itself is contrary to their former cultural practices.

[dmbwest]

Some nice writing today Kane !

HOTPE >>> Where are you getting these 5.00 X 12" ones ?

aloha,
pog

[Wao nahele kane]

Thanks Pog.

These issues are very intricate and the more I consider them the more I see the same old thing.
One of the things that caught my eye is when someone mentioned the Native American peoples telling the movement that reservations weren't the answer and they didn't work out for them as they had hoped.

The reason why reservations didn't work out as the Native Americans had hoped is because they implemented western culture into the reservations instead of restricting its adoption within the reservations. They could have long ago restricted their lifestyles within the reserve to their original cultural practices and traded amongst the other reservations. They didn't chose that route. Had they, they could have perhaps gained more lands if they actually needed them and could prove the need to Congress. Instead they are losing lands through abandonment and selling them off. The reservations have become nothing more than a sell out by virtue of their management guidelines.

A reservation is just that, an area set aside for reserving and preserving a people and more purposely its culture. If per say the indigenous peoples of these islands were granted reservations, they shouldn't consider them a place to move to and build their own western style homes and live out their remaining days living off the tit of the U.S. tax payers. They should consider them preserves to practice their cultural ways and living within them would constitute strict guidelines to meet those goals and all federal funding would be used directly to ensure that sanctuary meets those goals. Personally I wouldn't be for permanent residency within them and would expect everyone to at some point live outside of them and engage in helping form the future direction of this State as a member in the Union. Meanwhile the reservation would symbolize what was and be preserved to influence the State by virtue of their U.S. citizenship rights within its peoples. Life within a reservation would be ancient and very limited to outside influence with the exception of trade and agreements amongst other reservations and even with western culture business etc. while so engaged in that former cultural lifestyle. Trade type items would be limited and exclude all non essential to life modern items (modern medicine would be allowed in life threatening conditions as would emergency medical evacuation, etc). But the expectation to learn from the experience would be there and for its experience to be extracted from and implemented within the State in the sense of representation, votes and sharing those derived experience in their opinions applied outside the reservation.

A reservation used in any other capacity but that is poised for failure.

Anyhow, I see a perfect opportunity for the indigenous people to grab hold of and utilize for regaining their former cultural practices yet tempering them to facilitate within their limits. IE... no human sacrifices unless made symbolically when a native is to leave the reservation as their time to rotate back out into the Western World has come. This would also help to form appreciations for the advantages and disadvantages in the two differing cultures (western/international vs. indigenous/isolated).

A great deal could then be gained from such reservations. We don't have these benefit from reservations on the mainland today as they are just Native ideas governing a western lifestyle and for the most part becoming lost through the generations. They cant work that way, they must be govern by strict standards to preserve the culture, otherwise they are useless and only delay the inevitable dissolve into western culture and abandon.