We Support TMT - Please sign the petition

[PaulW]

It's too early!

Good article. I hope this doesn't set back scientific education for another decade.
Oh well, they can always bus tables in gypsy69's state-run restaurants,

[TomK]

For any aspiring observatory astronomers - radio astronomy will allow you to work regular hours. Just saying...

[MarkP]

I haven't found the best way to express it but I have problems with some people saying that "It's not about the TMT". There is a huge list of concerns being pressed by the protesters that very explicitly about the TMT. Therefore, being told that I and others that share my views just don't "get it" really alienates me. Are the protesters spreading hysteria about the water table also not getting it? Are they as worthy of disdain as I apparently am? At what point do those purporting to use logic as a rational for their anti-TMT stance recognize that they are irrationally giving a pass to anyone who is anti-TMT, even those who don't get it? At what point do such people recognize that in an absolute sense they themselves are just as likely not getting it as someone screaming about endangered bugs or the water table?

I suspect that the scream-about-the-water-table/poison cloud people would back up the its-really-about-Hawaiian-Sovereignty people and that is good enough for the latter. It then becomes a point of dis-ingenuousness on the part of the its-really-about-Hawaiian-Sovereignty people in not owning up to some of the crap being spread by the poison-cloud folks, while still stringing me along with the line that "its-really-about-Hawaiian-Sovereignty".

[TomK]

MarkP,

Probably lost in my ramblings, but what you wrote is exactly one of the points I was trying to make. There may be a core group that believe this is all about sovereignty, but there is so much anti-TMT crap out there unrelated to sovereignty it makes it difficult to really believe that's the main issue.

[kimo wires]

sovereignty will always be in part the, if not the main, issue.
Otherwise the Flag would be flown upright.

[TomK]

Kimo - you could get a well-paid job as an adviser to UK polling companies! []

(I'll explain if you don't understand!)

[ironyak]

I would suggest that it's not JUST about the TMT and within the protest movement there are a wide range of motivations. While this mixed message isn't easy to condense, it also gathers support from a range of views as evidenced by the reasons given with the 58000+ signatures on the Stop TMT petition.

Some express concern over environmental preservation, or reducing development, or government over-expansion, etc. Others see the issue as one of cultural & religious freedom, or native rights, or a platform for sovereignty, etc.

Each of these topics are complex and most views are a mix of many of them, some expressed clearly and others not so much. The willingness demonstrated here to pick one person's statements, especially the more fringe or extreme, as a summary of what the whole group believes is both simplistic and absurd.

If you're going to cherry-pick your evidence, why not tackle the arguments of real substance? What about the criticism of UH's stewardship of Mauna Kea, or the legal requirements of ceded lands? How does constitutional freedom of religion factor in on both sides? Are there moral obligations arising from privileges gained by a history of cultural oppression? When does a lack of representation severely limit self-determination, and what might be a solution?

There is plenty of wheat amongst the chaff if you bother to both look for and recognize it.

[PaulW]

Ironyak, apparently you're incapable of understanding this too. "This is not about TMT. At. All."

[PaulW]

quote:

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Originally posted by dakine

PaulW, I can understand and sympathize with your confusion. though I would implore you to read, and maybe read several times, the op-ed piece that opihikao linked above. I have, there's a lot packed in there. And, to date, it is the most succinct explanation of what's going on I have read. Really man, read it, meditate on it, research it's origins, and give it a while to set in. The issues here are worthy of your mature consideration, all of ours. I strongly believe we all are witnessing a great moment, are in essence a part of it, and as such all stand to be culturally enriched by the experience.

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Okay, I read it (did you?) and my response is: Are you kidding me? I don't know what that was, but someone is either a poor writer or an even worse editor. It was meaningless.

We'll see who is confused. Be sure to stick around for the post mortem.

[PaulW]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron S

I wrote this commentary after spending several weeks collecting my thoughts and writing this 600 + word commentary, which was published in Honolulu Civil Beat, among other news outlets.

http://www.civilbeat.com/connections/rev...e-mistake/

"I’ve followed the Thirty Meter Telescope public vetting process over the past seven years; the unprecedented public protests against this project caused me to write this commentary.

The public had equal opportunity to give comments about this telescope project. It underwent an extended contested case hearing process before the Board of Land and Natural Resources granted the conservation district use permit in 2013. In addition, Gov. Linda Lingle accepted the Final Environmental Impact Statement in 2010. There was a 60-day window to contest the FEIS after acceptance. No one stepped forward to do so during that window."

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Thanks, Aaron. A very good article and well written.