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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
quote:
Originally posted by shockwave rider
Are you putting forth the idea that Opihikao has the responsibility to respond to every action or statement made by every anti-TMT advocate, and that she is defending them through silence when she does not? Does that mean you are willing to be held responsible for every racist, illogical or dishonest statement made by pro-TMT advocates? Are you willing to be considered to be defending those pro-TMT advocates by your silence when you do not denounce them?
No. I hold her responsible for the things that she herself says. Specifically the conflicts that she herself creates. I hold her responsible for responding to those statements made by those protesters that she specifically endorses. How can anybody not understand this? No wonder this topic is such a cluster-you know what.
If there are any pro-TMT advocates that have said things worthy of condemnation, and if I openly supported those pro-TMT advocates, and if I then turned around and privately said well don't assume I agree with them cause I don't, THEN I would be worthy of criticism.
I should really not have responded to this post as my original statement was clear enough.
You cannot simultaneously claim to only hold someone responsible for what they say, and also say "When she then turns around and defends, even by silence, the movement when they reiterate the very points that she said she is not in agreement with, I am not able to understand." You are accusing her of defending something by not denouncing it. If that is a valid position then it could be said that you, as a pro-TMT voice "defends, even through silence" some of the blatantly racist statements made on this and other threads about the anti-TMT crowd. You can't have it both ways.
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opihikao:
I also appreciate being properly challenged. We all should. Finding balance is my intent
My thanks to you for hanging in with this discourse. There is nearly no one else for the pro-TMT side to talk to from the anti-TMT side and you have likely been unfairly used as a whipping post, so to speak, for the frustrations of myself and others.
I admire your integrity in standing up to the many sides you deal with on a daily basis. I wish you were the norm instead of the exception, but do realize that I shouldn't be taking you for granted as a thoughtful poster from the side of balance.
Cheers,
Kirt
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PaulW,
Near as I can tell the reasons are as vast as there are differing opinions within the protestors but amongst them is a common thread. It's those common threads that are what bind them together. Above all else it's about their connection with the mountain and they feel the TMT is another desecration of the mountain itself and of their sovereignty as a people. If you listen to the protestors statements during one of the arrest videos. A few claim that the police arresting them is a "war crime". This brings us to the movement for sovereignty. So the protest is that they feel it's their land to call the shots on and they don't recognize the validity of the State. People can try to claim it's the way the overall lease has been handled and all sorts of other things but when the common binding is put forward it's a demonstration to claim their sovereignty over not only the mountain but throughout all of the islands.
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With all due respect Opihikao, you can't just waltz in and apologize as though for an unintended personal slight.
Why not?
Haven't we all hit the edit button when we've said something we didn't intend to say, or needed to clarify a statement? That's somewhat like an apology in a sense. Trying to right a comment we made.
opihikao is one one of the most level headed, honest, clear thinking individuals on Punaweb, and I value her opinion. She should be free to state what she has heard from others, and is certainly under no obligation to apologize for anyone and everyone who may share that opinion.
In fact, I think she made it quite clear what she thought about the self appointed anti TMT "spokesperson" who turned out not to be a spokesman at all.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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For some people like Opihikao, I get the impression that she is not opposed to the TMT but does support the efforts of the Hawaiian movement in many aspect but not all. So it appears she supports the telescope and the protest simultaneously for her own personal reasons. I get that. It's normal and if she said it's not about the telescope, it isn't for her personally. For others that don't want the telescope it is about the telescope and the reasons therein are again as vast as there are personal opinions. But returned sovereignty is the common thread.
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Dichotomies run true and false here. Apply a flexible set of perspectives to evaluate what's being expressed.
When all the dust is settled. At most there will be some sort of Reservations and how they are implemented I have no idea. At minimum things will remain as they are now. The State will not be ceded as a whole as that is as close to impossible as it gets as long as the Union exists. There will be no fully unencumbered sovereign nation established within the State for reasons of security and if a National sovereignty is established it will be done so under very strict guidelines. In any case, it will have to be worked through the DOI, that's what they are there for... walking away from them is not an option if they expect to get somewhere.
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quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
Aaron S -
Thanks for posting the link to your Civil Beat article a few pages back. It's good to see the timeline and process that the TMT went through over the last decade to get their permits in order.
I've read a lot of comments on the web that state all these alleged flaws with the FEIS. If anyone has issues with the FEIS, their opportunity to contest it has passed. There was a 60 day window after it was accepted in 2010 and no one stepped forward at that time.
Deborah Ward, Flores- Case Ohana, Paul K. Neves,Clarence Ching,KAHEA, Kealoha Pisciotta all participated in the 2012-2013 contested case hearing for the conservation district use permit. The Flores- Case Ohana tried to get the spirit and guardian of Lake Waiau admitted into the proceedings, but was denied.
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I apologize if this was posted earlier, but I thought it was a good article about how the TMT debate has spilled over into the operations of the other observatories.
From A Darker View:
The event was the regularly scheduled meeting of the Mauna Kea Management Board. The board is a group of community members who volunteer their time to the work of protecting Mauna Kea. I was here because Keck Observatory wants to install a set of new weather instruments atop our building and domes.
...
The room was filling rapidly when we arrived, far beyond the usual audience of one of these meetings.
...
I worried about a protest that would disrupt the meeting, making it impossible to accomplish anything. This did not happen. I will give those who attended credit for showing respect for the proceedings and to those discussing the effort of caring for the mountain.
...
At least one attendee, a protester who had camped out on the mountain from the start of the protests, made accusations about the actions of university staff. The issue was of course the discovery of invasive ants ... How did the biologist find the ants when they did not? A UH biologist responded to the insulting accusations with style. Explaining that an untrained eye can easily miss many insects.
...
It was at the end of another round of questions that one of the board members, silent to that point, directly responded to the protesters present. Describing himself as an apprentice k#363;puna, Herring Kalua took those present to task about their relationship to the mountain.
...
I listened and learned as Uncle Kalua spoke... his language was a melange of English and Hawaiian words. Many of the Hawaiian terms he used do not translate well, the concepts foreign to the western way of thinking. As he spoke you could hear respect appear in the voices of the protesters, as he spoke they responded.
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=15567
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Thomas Belsky (In today's Fish Wrapper) writes;
"
Yes, it’s ludicrous
“Ludicrous” is an interesting word, and I thank D. Maloney for introducing it into the Thirty Meter Telescope discussion (Your Views, Tribune-Herald). For me, personally, as a somewhat educated citizen, it is the objective of the TMT that is ludicrous:
To reach back into space and Einstein’s time, some 10 billion (give or take a few million) of our years, to understand the Singularity that caused the Big Bang.
I happen to know what caused the Big Bang: It was God. Intentionally popping a balloon.
“MaiMan,” the sage of lower Mamo Street, told me how she saw this TMT situation.
There’s this international conference for all persons interested in the fate of life on Earth, and a great and sumptuous banquet is prepared and set before all attendees. Science, being loudly self-congratulatory, decides to dine upon something that looks shiny, delicious and new, but located at the other end of the great table. Being well-sated and confident in its prowess, Science reaches across the banquet table, knocking over and discombobulating the grand design of the conference. Well, as can be well-imagined, History, Culture, Religion and Poetry are up in arms.
On the plate before Astronomy are the analyses of thousands of astronomical facts and fictions, thanks to all the fruits of the Age of Reason, from Spinoza to Hubble.
What we really need is a TMT that will implement some rules of international civility. The late Sen. Spark Matsunaga envisioned a Peace Department equal to the war department.
That’s where the $1.4 billion should go — build it right here on Hawaii Island.
What Athens was to Praxiteles’ and Plato’s Mediterranean, let Hawaii be to the world.
The Singularity ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Tomas Belsky
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I think one or two people are being a little unfair to Opihikao. Unless I missed something, she currently supports the TMT project as long as they carry out their promises and one or two other conditions are met. To me that's a perfectly reasonable position to take and doesn't mean she has to speak for the protesters.
I really value her insights as it's clear she has family involved in both sides of the debate and she has and is providing PW with a unique, respectful and intelligent perspective.
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