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quote:
Originally posted by rbbyrd
quote:
Originally posted by PunaMauka2
"If you have an ancestor who was a Hawaiian National you should automatically be able to be a Hawaiian National. Anyone could also become a national if they applied like any other country."
Kaimana likes to talk as if the reinstated kingdom is right around the corner. Serious and dignified stuff. This answer is nothing new. You can find it and the answer to many others in other threads, particularly the older thread about the state judge ruling that the Hawaiian Kingdom still exists. You can read all about how the transition from state back to kingdom might unfold, including the possibility of "mass deportations" from the kingdom of those who can't name one of those Hawaiian National ancestors.
"If you have an ancestor who was a Hawaiian National..."
As soon as this statement was made, it became about ethnicity. Ancestry involves bloodlines which comes down to race. No way around that.
While Kaimana attempted to, the question of what makes a Hawaiian National was never answered.
As I understand it, everyone on the planet is considered a "national" of the country in which they were born. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if one is born in France, they are considered a French national. Born in the US, an American national. Korea, a Korean national.
My point? Where does all this leave my wife; 3rd generation Filipino born in Kalihi, (not a Kalihi national[ ]), in 1955 while Hawaii was a territory? If, as those in the sovereignty movement claim, annexation/statehood were done illegally, it stands to reason that my wife was born in the Kingdom/country of Hawaii and therefore is a "Hawaiian national". Where do we line up for her share of the reparations?
Any counter-arguments to my point would seem to have only one direction in which to proceed; ancestry/bloodlines. And that boils down to race. For one to try and state that the issue is not about race/ethnicity is disingenuous, at best. Of course, as a prominent educator at UH said back in the early 90s, "Only white people can be racists."
Additionally, disingenuous is the word that I think best describes the sovereignty movement in general. The movement(s), in my opinion, are about money and land, not the general welfare of the "Hawaiian" people. I think one reason there are so many factions of the sovereignty movement because they all have different ideas of how the "pie" should be sliced up. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the most vocal of all the factions are all "descendants of royalty". Not once have I heard the phrase "my ancestors were peasants". There's royalty coming out of the woodwork! It would seem to me that there would be only one reason to claim royal lineage; the right to money and power. Which is another reason why there are so many different factions. I guess the "royals" are gonna have to fight it out.
A suggestion I have is that the descendants of the peasants or commoners, if there are any, really scrutinize the bill of goods the different factions are trying to sell.
RB Byrd
Flower Mound, TX
So being an American citizen boils down to race/ethnicity? I also mentioned that anyone could apply to become a citizen, just like every other country.
Also, in the case of Hawaii, if it were to return to it's own sovereign nation(Republic or Kingdom), it would more than likely be because the US has been occupying it. There are rules to occupation and migrating your population is against international laws. So being born here would not make you automatically a citizen. Also not all countries have that law. As mentioned earlier, there are only 30 countries that do that.
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quote:
Again, some were beaten for speaking our language, and worse. (ie. Massie case, etc.)
I want to know who was doing the beatings to those speaking Hawaiian.
From what I have heard, it wasn't roving bands of white people finding people speaking Hawaiian, it was mostly ohana who wanted their kin to learn to speak english.
I really want to know or where I can find out more, because it keeps getting thrown out their as a symbol of oppression.
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I think that was more of problem with first generation Asians. At least in the last century. That's why people like me aren't bilingual but we're lucky we know American!
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I think that was more of problem with first generation Asians. At least in the last century in the plantations. That's why people like me aren't bilingual but we're lucky we know American!
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quote:
Originally posted by Mtviewdude
quote:
Again, some were beaten for speaking our language, and worse. (ie. Massie case, etc.)
I want to know who was doing the beatings to those speaking Hawaiian.
From what I have heard, it wasn't roving bands of white people finding people speaking Hawaiian, it was mostly ohana who wanted their kin to learn to speak english.
I really want to know or where I can find out more, because it keeps getting thrown out their as a symbol of oppression.
MISSIONARIES. (BBM) Not the ohana. That's pure BS. Please.
Research, MVD. Google is a great tool; and make sure you use good "key words" like "Beaten for speaking Hawaiian language", Bishop Museum documents, Iolani Palace documents, Kamehameha School/Bishop Estate documents, etc. It is there.
Don't take my word for it, via my Kupuna (who were beaten in schools for trying to teach children who didn't understand English). No denying it then, nor in this day and age. It is pure truth. Our language was banned. Further, I would NEVER question what Kupuna told me, and they had no "links" to prove the tale. They did not need it. The Kupuna word was "gold". In essence, you're looking for a "link" or proof, whereas, my "proof" lies in Kupuna mouth to my ear.
Back to your question: It is the way of the "conqueror", in any situation (although, the "Code Talkers" were valued by the great USofA, as an aside).
1) Take away communication (language, in our case)
2) Take control of land
3) "Strong arm" and divide a people (ie. a few carrots to those who "bite", in the vernacular).
The "Art of War", as it were. Very basic. For most of you who were raised elsewhere, it also applies to those of us who were raised here.
Now, shall we change the title of this thread, since it's gone off on another tangent? With due respect, if the question was asked in honest "wanting to know".
Back to topic, so....no one cares about my dissertation about freaking people squatting on our land? How about the knife? Nobody cares? Obviously (rhetoric, don't bother answering).
Well, squatters are not part of the equation, and do not imbued sincere "standing of rights". A'ole. No way. [  !]
JMOIO. (Just my old irritated opinion. At this point.)
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dakine stated: Beginning in 1900, Mary Kawena Pukui, who was later the co-author of the Hawaiian–English Dictionary, was punished for speaking Hawaiian by being rapped on the forehead, allowed to eat only bread and water for lunch, and denied home visits on holidays. Winona Beamer was expelled from Kamehameha Schools in 1937 for chanting Hawaiian.
There it is. Kupuna.
JMFOIO.
ETA: Mary Kawena Puku'i was revered "Kupuna". No question. Of the line of Pele.
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Hopefully the Chukese speakers can learn English like all the other immigrant groups at least the children. Whose the object of more prejudice the haoles or the Chukese speakers? Since answering these questions might be the first step to solving them.
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Kaimana states in response: quote:
So being an American citizen boils down to race/ethnicity? I also mentioned that anyone could apply to become a citizen, just like every other country.
Also, in the case of Hawaii, if it were to return to it's own sovereign nation(Republic or Kingdom), it would more than likely be because the US has been occupying it. There are rules to occupation and migrating your population is against international laws. So being born here would not make you automatically a citizen. Also not all countries have that law. As mentioned earlier, there are only 30 countries that do that.
[ ] Eo, kaimana. Again.
JMFOOIO. [ ]
ETA: Clipped to save space. Also to respond to "tada" who stated: "Hopefully the Chukese speakers can learn English like all the other immigrant groups at least the children. Whose the object of more prejudice the haoles or the Chukese speakers? Since answering these questions might be the first step to solving them.
Thank you. Learn to speak English. That is what America wants all to do, right? Some can speak both, native tongue, and English (both old and new), and like my Papa, speak Japanese, and also Chinese. More prejudice? Well, that is in the eye of the beholder.
Kala mai, PM2, no delete. In answer to your question, yes; JMO
Thought you were "snoozing" on this one. (lol...)
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I don't doubt hitting or beating went on in Hawaiian schools in the early 20th century. It still occurred in my mainland public school in the 1960's.
We had one teacher who insisted you answer him with the word "yes" never "yeah." If you didn't, the exchange went like this: "yeah" "huh?" "yeah" "huh?".... until you said yes. One study hall, an 8th grade tough guy greaser hood refused the say yes. The teacher then demanded the kid kneel before him. When he wouldn't the teacher grabbed him by the hair and collar, forced him to the ground and stomped on his shoes until he finally kneeled. This all took place in front of 100 of us. For not using proper English. So I can imagine a child in 1920 speaking Hawaiian might even get worse.
BTW, my neighbors went to Catholic school and they had stories of hitting, slapping, spanking, pinching, with hands, rulers, sticks, etc on a regular basis. Nuns had it out for them.
I'm glad you were able to get the squatters off of your land opihkao. Sounds like a frightening experience with knives, and idiots with knives. You're very fortunate to be rid of them so quickly. You never know how long desperate people will try and drag something out, especially if (clearly) they have nowhere to go.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
I don't doubt hitting or beating went on in Hawaiian schools in the early 20th century. It still occurred in my mainland school in the 1960's.
We had one teacher who insisted you answer him with the word "yes" never "yeah." If you didn't, the exchange went like this: "yeah" "huh?" "yeah" "huh?".... until you said yes. One study hall, an 8th grade tough guy greaser hood refused the say yes. The teacher then demanded the kid kneel before him. When he wouldn't the teacher grabbed him by the hair and collar, forced him to the ground and stomped on his shoes until he finally kneeled. This all took place in front of 100 of us. For not using proper English. So I can imagine a child in 1920 speaking Hawaiian might even get worse.
BTW, my neighbors went to Catholic school and they had stories on that were much worse than the one that occurred at my public school on a fairly regular basis. Nuns had it out for them.
I'm glad you were able to get the squatters off of your land opihkao. Sounds like a frightening experience with knives, and idiots with knives. You're very fortunate to be rid of them so quickly. You never know how long desperate people will try and drag something out, especially if (clearly) they have nowhere to go.
HOTPE, my Daddy went through the Nuns (staunch Catholic; lifer). OMG. Stories for days, and not good ones, just saying. Daddy always said, "Thank God I wasn't an alter boy". [:0]
Back to topic: As to the squatters, if they had any substance, or a hint of true "need", I would not have done what had to be done. It was the most indescribable situation, on our family land, and I will admit, my heart was in my throat, yet, "mana" was called upon from Kupuna.
Looking an "icehead" in the face, who doesn't give a rip about you or anything, is somewhat disheartening, to say the least. Yes, we are fortunate in that they are gone, never to return without consequence, and "aloha aina", not "desecrate" my family land. A'ole.
Mahalo for your acknowledgement. The situation truly sucked. [V][ !]
JMO.
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