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quote:
Originally posted by PunaMauka2
Shockwave rider, ironically you seem to be relying on an awful lot of stereotypes in your reasoning there yourself.
Just curious, what is your definition of "the Hawaiians"? ...in the contemporary sense.
Don't know what stereotypes you are referring to, I mostly posited a hypothetical scenario. I have a lot of experience working with disenfranchised populations, here and on the mainland, including organizing housing and job training options for Native Americans who were trying to break out of the cycle of poverty, addiction, and homelessness. In doing that work I have participated in trainings and seminars taught by Native American educators from the United States and other educators from former colonies in Africa and the Americas, and the scholarly research on education and conquered peoples is pretty consistent, I didn't just "make stuff up" like some here do. I have also had my contemporaries, and even younger, both Hawaiian and Native American, tell me of experiencing very real bias and discrimination in the public school systems; the days of telling students they are just a "stupid Hawaiian" or "stupid Indian" are not in the distant past, it still happens to this day, and I know people whose children have had it happen to them.
To me, Hawaiians are descendants of the people who were living in Hawaii prior to the arrival of Captain Cook. Descendants of everyone who came later are the children and grandchildren of immigrants to Hawaii, and we will never be Hawaiians, although we can be residents of Hawaii. I could live here for decades more, and still I will never be Hawaiian, and I certainly would never take it upon myself to tell "Hawaiians" what they should do, feel, or think about issues of deep concern to them.
I think everyone should take care of the old, the young, and those who can't take care of themselves, but I do not think I have the right to tell the descendants of the people who were here before Captain Cook stumbled across Hawaii in search of the NW Passage what issues should be important to them, or what they should do about it.
edited to add: I just checked, and I did not use the phrase "the Hawaiians" just like I would not refer to "the blacks" or "brown people" as an earlier poster did. When that little 3 letter word gets stuck in front of an identifier it changes the meaning, and acquires some seriously racist overtones. That was your language, not mine.
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"Yes, I found Punatic007's use of the term brown-skinned to be abrasive and pretty much offensive. As distasteful as I found it to be, in the overall context I leaned towards assuming Punatic007 was expressing frustration at, and perhaps illustrating, a prevalent double standard. In any case, it made me notice and think." -PM2
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Yes that was my intention. The double standards of the prolific reverse racism abound on our island, continuously reinforced by the racists themselves and the not too bright politically correct apologists. Racism is ugly stuff and it's alive and well in Puna.
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
I don't understand why so many of you can live here, claim to love Hawaii, and yet are so dismissive and insulting about the Native Hawaiians...
Amen. So well said.
I would say it's a haole (American) thing, but really it's a broader human being trait, a sickness, of selfishness, of greed. One must limit their empathy to expand their greed. It's the essence of winning in any capitalistic society. IMO it's the same ailment that is destroying our planet by not acknowledging the effects our modernized society is having on the Earth's eco-system. After all to acknowledge it would be to accept limiting our pleasures, our amusements. The same I want mine screw everyone else that is so pervasive in American society. That would allow the profits of insurance companies to dominate the health industry, that would put spending for public schools second to the military. That deny there might be negative effects inherent in GMO. Republicans are a great example of this illness with their desire to abandon the needy in favor of corporate profits. Greed, and we wreak of it.
bold by me...lets keep it fair and include those mighty Democrats
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I don't understand why so many of you can live here, claim to love Hawaii, and yet are so dismissive and insulting about the Native Hawaiians...
Some of us live here, and support Native Hawaiians and their rights, but also point out arguments made by a vocal few that are not true, don't add up, or are otherwise distorted.
A movement in the long run won't be successful if it's not based on truth. I can support people wanting to get their piece of the pie, a homestead, an education, and self determination, but they better know if a bug is endangered, or how a water table works if it's an argument they want to use to elicit my support. And they better not cry over newly invented religious practices they claim they're prevented from performing, as an excuse to circumnavigate the law. That won't fly. Fortunately the people who do those things are a minority, and the majority of Native Hawaiians are better than that, and are better off without them.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Shockwave rider, standing ovation!
Mahalo.
JMO.
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Shockwave rider, that's some impressive ethnic social work credentials you outline there. I can see where you get your passionate perspective from. It's not uncommon among relative newcomers or those from the outside looking in to end up overcompensating a little in the noble effort to sympathize with a perceived underdog.
As far as stereotypes, "Conquered people" thrown in with plenty other damaged and victimized language especially caught my eye. I find all that very patronizing and actually quite demeaning, despite the sympathetic intentions.
My mistake about "the Hawaiians". I forgot to include "Native" in there. So, i meant "the Native Hawaiians", "the" included.
"...about the Native Hawaiians and their pain...
In answer to my question you said: "To me, Hawaiians are descendants of the people who were living in Hawaii prior to the arrival of Captain Cook. Descendants of everyone who came later are the children and grandchildren of immigrants to Hawaii, and we will never be Hawaiians, although we can be residents of Hawaii."
Ok. So what of the majority of the people who have Hawaiian ancestry and are also "descendants of [anyone] who came later"? Does the pain of, say, an individual with 10% Hawaiian ancestry trump that of the remaining 90% ancestry in that individual which came later...which will never be Hawaiian? Do we get to cherry pick our mixed ancestry, emotionally self-identifying with the "native" portion and ignore the rest? Otherwise I would imagine someone with ancestry both native and directly linked to actual missionaries could get quite confused as far as their genetic and cultural emotion goes. pain AND guilt... what a combo to carry forth in this life from our respective genealogies.
As far as anyone telling anyone else what and how they should feel, I must say I detect much more of that coming from this sovereignty/cultural renaissance movement than anywhere else.
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quote:
Originally posted by shockwave rider
quote:
Originally posted by PunaMauka2
Shockwave rider, ironically you seem to be relying on an awful lot of stereotypes in your reasoning there yourself.
Just curious, what is your definition of "the Hawaiians"? ...in the contemporary sense.
Don't know what stereotypes you are referring to, I mostly posited a hypothetical scenario. I have a lot of experience working with disenfranchised populations, here and on the mainland, including organizing housing and job training options for Native Americans who were trying to break out of the cycle of poverty, addiction, and homelessness. In doing that work I have participated in trainings and seminars taught by Native American educators from the United States and other educators from former colonies in Africa and the Americas, and the scholarly research on education and conquered peoples is pretty consistent, I didn't just "make stuff up" like some here do. I have also had my contemporaries, and even younger, both Hawaiian and Native American, tell me of experiencing very real bias and discrimination in the public school systems; the days of telling students they are just a "stupid Hawaiian" or "stupid Indian" are not in the distant past, it still happens to this day, and I know people whose children have had it happen to them.
To me, Hawaiians are descendants of the people who were living in Hawaii prior to the arrival of Captain Cook. Descendants of everyone who came later are the children and grandchildren of immigrants to Hawaii, and we will never be Hawaiians, although we can be residents of Hawaii. I could live here for decades more, and still I will never be Hawaiian, and I certainly would never take it upon myself to tell "Hawaiians" what they should do, feel, or think about issues of deep concern to them.
I think everyone should take care of the old, the young, and those who can't take care of themselves, but I do not think I have the right to tell the descendants of the people who were here before Captain Cook stumbled across Hawaii in search of the NW Passage what issues should be important to them, or what they should do about it.
edited to add: I just checked, and I did not use the phrase "the Hawaiians" just like I would not refer to "the blacks" or "brown people" as an earlier poster did. When that little 3 letter word gets stuck in front of an identifier it changes the meaning, and acquires some seriously racist overtones. That was your language, not mine.
bold by me...so, what are you saying?
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quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
I don't understand why so many of you can live here, claim to love Hawaii, and yet are so dismissive and insulting about the Native Hawaiians...
Some of us live here, and support Native Hawaiians and their rights, but also point out arguments made by a vocal few that are not true, don't add up, or are otherwise distorted.
A movement in the long run won't be successful if it's not based on truth. I can support people wanting to get their piece of the pie, a homestead, an education, and self determination, but they better know if a bug is endangered, or how a water table works if it's an argument they want to use to elicit my support. And they better not cry over newly invented religious practices they claim they're prevented from performing, as an excuse to circumnavigate the law. That won't fly. Fortunately the people who do those things are a minority, and the majority of Native Hawaiians are better than that, and are better off without them.
This is it in a nutshell. No matter how noble the cause, bulls**t is still bulls**t and the more someone asks me to believe that 2+2=3 or 5 or anything but 4, the more alienated I become from the people making such outlandish claims.
I honestly don't think that I have heard that much from the mainstream Native Hawaiian community. A normal spectrum of opinion would have a much wider spread so the fact that alternative viewpoints are so infrequently heard is proof to me that many are remaining silent.
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"To me, Hawaiians are descendants of the people who were living in Hawaii prior to the arrival of Captain Cook. Descendants of everyone who came later are the children and grandchildren of immigrants to Hawaii, and we will never be Hawaiians, although we can be residents of Hawaii. I could live here for decades more, and still I will never be Hawaiian, and I certainly would never take it upon myself to tell "Hawaiians" what they should do, feel, or think about issues of deep concern to them."
-shockwave rider
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The above quote from shockwave rider is a classic example of politically correct apology syndrome. If you are born in California you are a Californian, right? But not in Hawaii? We are all immigrants here including the Tahitians descendants you feel deserve a racial preference.
People can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it does not affect their neighbors adversely. The racism and divisiveness is a huge energy draw on all of us.
Some of us don't consider the coddling of Native Americans as a good or healthy thing. I spent time in Tibetan refugee enclaves in Nepal last year as a student. China has been pressuring the Nepalese to harass the Tibetans, some get disappeared, tortured and killed. Talk about a dislocated population. I didn't experience any of the myriad of the destructive social problems the Native Americans have. Perhaps if you continually treat people like victims, they act like weak victims. Seems the Tibetans have continued to build character and greater compassion for all beings regardless of race or history.
We aren't all bad shockwave, we simply have very different perspective and life experiences. Thank goodness we live in America where we can be honest with one another and have great freedoms.
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quote:
Originally posted by Punatic007
"To me, Hawaiians are descendants of the people who were living in Hawaii prior to the arrival of Captain Cook. Descendants of everyone who came later are the children and grandchildren of immigrants to Hawaii, and we will never be Hawaiians, although we can be residents of Hawaii. I could live here for decades more, and still I will never be Hawaiian, and I certainly would never take it upon myself to tell "Hawaiians" what they should do, feel, or think about issues of deep concern to them."
-shockwave rider
_____________________________________________________________________
The above quote from shockwave rider is a classic example of politically correct apology syndrome. If you are born in California you are a Californian, right? But not in Hawaii? We are all immigrants here including the Tahitians descendants you feel deserve a racial preference.
People can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it does not affect their neighbors adversely. The racism and divisiveness is a huge energy draw on all of us.
Some of us don't consider the coddling of Native Americans as a good or healthy thing. I spent time in Tibetan refugee enclaves in Nepal last year as a student. China has been pressuring the Nepalese to harass the Tibetans, some get disappeared, tortured and killed. Talk about a dislocated population. I didn't experience any of the myriad of the destructive social problems the Native Americans have. Perhaps if you continually treat people like victims, they act like weak victims. Seems the Tibetans have continued to build character and greater compassion for all beings regardless of race or history.
We aren't all bad shockwave, we simply have very different perspective and life experiences. Thank goodness we live in America where we can be honest with one another and have great freedoms.
I know Californians who would disagree with that, and just because you move to Oregon, it sure as heck doesn't make you an Oregonian. The S.N.O.B. (Society of Native Oregon Born) bumper stickers are still common, and my parents moved into a small rural town in another state over 60 years ago and they still are considered newcomers, in fact if you didn't have one of the 18 original settler's last names you were an outsider for life, no matter who you married.
edited to add: Have you ever seen what life is like on an Indian Reservation that doesn't have casino money? If you consider that coddling I hate to see what you think a bad deal looks like. Different people handle things differently, but there you go again, telling Hawaiians how they OUGHT to be responding. Maybe you could just acknowledge the pain other people experience, instead of telling them how the SHOULD feel about their situation and how they should be more like some other people you are more impressed with on the other side of the world. And if you bother to look you will see that exactly NO WHERE did I say anyone should get a racial preference, so don't put words into my mouth just to make a weak point stronger.
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