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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
First, dial way back on the wailing about how wronged modern Hawaiians are. Many of them are no more wronged than they were by Kamehameha. No, that's second. First, embrace reality and welcome the TMT as the most recent part of the Hawaiian people's journey by the stars, leading the way for the rest of us as they historically have.
[:0] OK... I'm (kinda) with you, (I think) and then....???
How does one "wrong", beget another "wrong", which equals, "reality", which equals "deal with it"? (Psst....rhetoric...no answer...just saying...)
Sorry, just trying to understand. Again, mahalo for communicating on a respectful level, and forgive my misunderstanding of this post, if that is the case.
There are apparently many misgivings to the overthrow of the Kingdom, and the times which predated, (ie. Kamehameha, etc.) that contradict today's argument.
My question is: How do we move forward? Or, do we stay in the status quo? Lots of homework to do, given what is at stake.
Mahalo again, sincerely, for engaging in the conversation, respectfully. Just kinda "lost" with your intended message.
JMO.
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Lately this debate reminds me of the senior citizen protestors at the Marine Base in Okinawa. They are the older generation still gripped with the tales of their forefathers. How the evil Japanese came and conquered. They picket and grumble about what should be. The younger generation however, is able to forgive and forget. If only the same could be said for Hawaii.
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"ETA: Ok Paul, that's your cue... you can flame me now!"
Glad to oblige. You left out the bit where the judge said that everyone who disagrees should shut up and go back to where they came from.
What, he didn't say that? It was just you then.
I'm all for X people deciding for themselves on matters that only affect X people.
Letting a tiny minority of a minority decide everything for everyone else is something completely different.
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
If the state is invalid because of the overthrow, it is equally true that the monarchy was invalid because it was achieved by force, and so on down the line back to the Marquesans.
Conquest was valid form of acquisition of sovereignty at the time and Hawaii was not involved in international laws at the time of Kamehameha 1.
The overthrow isn't what was invalid, the actual treaty or lack thereof, is where the issue is.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaimana
The overthrow isn't what was invalid, the actual treaty or lack thereof, is where the issue is.
You don't get a treaty when you get conquered. You are lucky to survive. Marinate on that.
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I haven't read much on this issue, but from the comments on this thread it appears there is an attempt to restrict involvement in the voting process:
* High blood quanta requirement
* Agreement in advance to support sovereignty
This means a very small percentage of Hawaiians will participate. The Hawaiians who do participate will by default be supporters in the most extreme wing of the sovereignty movement, and any proposals voted on will tend to reflect this. Again, I haven't read much on the issue, but it makes me wonder whether this is by design. Most people don't have the time to read the details of every news report, so when a future headline reads "Hawaiians vote 90% in Support of Sovereignty" it will give the impression that sovereignty leaders have a huge following. Whereas in reality it might be closer to 15-20% if all Hawaiians had voted.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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MarkP: First, dial way back on the wailing about how wronged modern Hawaiians are. Many of them are no more wronged than they were by Kamehameha. No, that's second. First, embrace reality and welcome the TMT as the most recent part of the Hawaiian people's journey by the stars, leading the way for the rest of us as they historically have.
ophikao: Just kinda "lost" with your intended message.
opihikao, I am reminded of when you say some "just don't get it." I think he means stop griping and let the TMT happen. Is either or both of those _unthinkable_ even?
It will be choke ironic (hey, I like that, choke ironic) if OHA ends up with even more power and money when the dust settles. And, of course, more corruption, less transparency, and more ways not to serve it's intended purpose.
Ironic, since to my eyes, the "Hawaiians" gripe is with OHA, and instead of fighting OHA to do its job, they have almost iconized the TMT as some sort of idiotic focal point. Then the soap opera plays out as some sort of comedy making both sides become a laughingstock to any one looking at Hawaii from the outside (and many on the inside).
Without thinking anything through, the protestors do the TMT thing, ignore any POV arguing that the TMT has nothing to do with "Hawaiian oppression", fancify environmental, religious, etc. arguments out of thin air. The state wimps out. OHA steps in with more power grabbing. And if that's the way it ends up...well, unintended consequences to say the least.
Cheers,
Kirt
typo
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Ditto to that, Knieft.
Elsewhere from opposing points of view we appear to have a disproportionate amount of semantic tap dancing here.
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In other news, the weather up mauka today has been one of those absolutely idyllic cool and sunny mountain days.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kapoho Joe
You don't get a treaty when you get conquered. You are lucky to survive. Marinate on that.
And this is why talks about this never get anywhere. Instead of attacking the argument at hand you(not you in particular, generally speaking) reply with "be happy it could be worse". But that doesn't address the argument. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
And actually almost every time a nation was conquered in "modern" times there has been a treaty involved. There is usually a treaty of cession before being totally wiped out.  hrug:.
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