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The HPPOA web site has posted the "Annual Update" dated Jan. 2016.
In it and included in the "President's Update Message" is this statement;
"The Board sought a legal opinion on whether the membership can overturn a policy adopted by the Board concerning road maintenance matters. The attorney's response is, "Because of the specific delegation of authority to the Board concerning the maintenance, repair and improvement of the subdivision roadways, and to adopt policies concerning same, it does not appear the membership may override a Board policy concerning the roadway maintenance.".
I see 2 problems with this statement from the President. 1. As has previously been posted several times on this thread (and recently)the membership has only voted in the Oct. 2015 meeting to require the Board to postpone chip seal until they have presented the membership with the facts and figures involved in this costly process and then the membership can give approval or not to chip seal. After all, it's the members money.
2. The attorney must have given his opinion as a result of some sort of disinformation from the board of directors who posed the question to him. Chip seal is not road maintenance, the association doesn't need County, State and Federal permits and permission for maintenance but we sure do for chip seal and including a licensed contractor.
I would like to ask a reasonable question of our overlords who sit on the Board, shouldn't we re-examine the costs and the pros and cons associated with chip seal vs. paving again (Oh! Wait, they never did the first time)? After all, the price of oil was $63.67 May 1st last year when this project was first brought up compared to $32.25 as of Friday. Almost a 100% drop in price.
Maybe paving is a better option at this point.
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The roads in our farm lots section that were chip and sealed first are on hills.They were done first because heavy rain would always wash off the gravel and they would end up rutted.
The chip and seal has prevented that from happening.
I found this statement on the Orchidland site that contradicts what you are saying about them:
" Aloha Orchidland Community Association members,
Currently, Orchidland has over 2,000 property owners and about 40 miles of private roadways to maintain. In the last six months 3.6 miles of chip sealed roadways have been recoated, over 25 miles of unpaved side roads serviced, plus many miles of roadsides and intersections mowed to improve safety. In addition, the paving plan is moving forward to address the worst unpaved sections of main access roads, and our Community lot is being maintained in preparation for development.
Yes, for the past six months we have been getting more road maintenance completed then ever before at affordable rates by fully insured and state licensed companies."
Chip and sealing is an accepted road maintenance option.It doesn't require a rocket scientist to do it.Most of your roads would be good candidates for chip and sealing with high traffic roads be better suited to be paved with AC paving.
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I learned to drive in a beater PU truck on the kind of washboard gravel roads that can shake loose your fillings and pot holes that could bust an axel. Chip seal came after I had moved out, but they were darn good roads, in spite of hills and seasonal flooding on stretches. But one stretch of road was done by a county commissioner's cousin and it was so bad the local farmers stripped the chip seal off and went back to gravel after 5 years of repairs that didn't work. So my take on chip seal is it can work really well if done right, and be really terrible if done wrong.
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I see 2 problems with this statement from the President. 1. As has previously been posted several times on this thread (and recently)the membership has only voted in the Oct. 2015 meeting to require the Board to postpone chip seal until they have presented the membership with the facts and figures involved in this costly process and then the membership can give approval or not to chip seal. After all, it's the members money.
2. The attorney must have given his opinion as a result of some sort of disinformation from the board of directors who posed the question to him. Chip seal is not road maintenance, the association doesn't need County, State and Federal permits and permission for maintenance but we sure do for chip seal and including a licensed contractor.
Again what is the reason the board has so much resistance and combativeness to let the membership decide whether WE want chip seal or not? If they truly care about the best interest of the association, they'd do the presentation and let the membership vote. If they truly had the best interest of the association in mind, the whole proposed project would be totally transparent. They have been tight lipped about the whole project. If they're planning on doing this in house w/out an engineer and experienced professionals involved....red flag.
Going to an attorney to see whether they can overturn a membership vote only proves their arrogance and their resistance and combativeness towards the membership. They are only volunteers who are supposed to be representing us. They have a history of constantly breaking our bylaws, not having their ducks in a row and making hasty decisions. Red flag for this size of a project.
Obie pointed out that there are other professionals out there, but the board told us there was only one and they were going full steam ahead w/that guy until Orchidland filed a suit against him. They then changed their direction to do it all in house at that point. Not look for another chip seal contractor....why? When a member at a board mtg asked whether the board had rented out chip seal equipment already, they wouldn't reply. Why? When asked if they were doing the work in house, again no reply. Why?
The board keeps insisting this is called road "maintenance". This is far from being road "maintenance" if you need permits and a contractor's license as knowing members keep saying. Far from being road "maintenance" if you require expensive equipment we don't own. But that language works for the board as long as they can convince lay people of it.
The board hadn't planned on doing a test road to begin with and hastily started clearing a road to chip seal, w/no transparency involved. After the membership spoke up, the road they had already cleared (instead of the road crew working on our easements etc) suddenly turned into a "test road", AND all done w/out proper permits and a contractor's license. The membership delayed their progression by bringing that to their attention. As you see, the membership is having to watch and step in bc they don't have their ducks in a row. Red flag.
Chip and sealing is an accepted road maintenance option.It doesn't require a rocket scientist to do it.Most of your roads would be good candidates for chip and sealing with high traffic roads be better suited to be paved with AC paving.
Obie, the board isn't looking into paving at all even for high traffic roads, just mass chip sealing. I didn't say it takes a rocket scientist to do the chip seal...I said:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that these variables make a difference in how each road should be approached w/chip seal. The result will only be as good as the foundation it's laid on, which requires a decent engineer and an experienced professional.
So my take on chip seal is it can work really well if done right, and be really terrible if done wrong.
THAT has been one of my major points and concerns all along! After their hasty decision to progress as quickly as possible and observing that they weren't following our bylaws and corporate policy on the undertaking of a project this size, despite how the membership felt from the beginning, and using over $300,000 of our hard earned monies, it is a MAJOR concern "if done wrong".
The link in my earlier post proves this is no minor project that our GM and our small road crew can do "in house". We're being kept completely in the dark about this costly project. Why? If you've nothing to hide, why not be totally transparent, right? And why put a slant and add non existent verbage in the Nov minutes on the chip seal topic? Our minutes are getting tweaked over it, why?
Sorry, edited for word correction, 1st sentence last para.
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This is our only forum to communicate the good, the bad and the ugly regarding this thread's name. This is a large subdivision and communication's always been a big issue. Esp if there's no effort by the board and mgmt to improve this. ie. no banners to remind members of the upcoming membership mtgs as once was done. No Conch for over a year....non transparency on a lot of business.
Here's the GOOD....A new civil defense siren is going up on county land, makai side, near intersection of C & L Rd. Before, the nearest one was up on 4th or 5th off Kaloli which couldn't be heard by Kaloli Pt residents. Hopefully this will service the Ala Heiau neighborhood. Thank you Darryl Oliveira for listening to our needs.
The playground's installation w/fencing etc is happening. Judy Houle from the Playground Committee was able w/her connections to get a good deal on the equipment and the shipping costs. Kudos to Judy and the rest of the committee. Take a look when you have time. For those that don't know, Judy is a tireless, no drama volunteer who is very involved w/the HPP NW, the Alibizia and Fire Ant Committee, Playground Committee...I might be missing another committee?? She has contributed so much to HPP, always w/a smile on her face and we all really appreciate her.
The new admin clerk was terminated almost a month ago after being on the job a little over 2 wks or so. I heard members thought she was doing a great job, aiming to please w/good cheer. She was well qualified for the position. She put flowers and chocolates on the counter to greet members with. How could someone like that get terminated so quickly? There has been no advertising to fill that position yet. Why not?
Is the HRC member still filling in as a paid temp, hired during the delinquent road maint fee girl's absence? Isn't that a conflict of interest to be on the HRC, screening and interviewing applicants, writing job descripts, negotiating salary and then hired, even as a temp? The full board isn't in the loop w/all this terminating and hiring as they should be. Dejavu. That's our checks and balances.
The arbitration is in motion. The board didn't respond to meeting w/the applicants, so the arbitration has been filed. If you want to know more, go to the General Membership Mtg on 28 Feb 2016 @ 3 PM. It is going to cost the association money so if you want add'l info, attend the mtg. A request was made last week for the board Secretary to add it to our membership mtg agenda.
The Bylaw Committee has their minutes posted on the HPP website up to Oct 2015. There was some cancelled mtgs and Dec vacation break which is why there's a gap. Further minutes will be posted as they're approved. BLC will be giving a report on where they are currently with the amendment proposals and a sample of the format that will be used when presented to the membership. There are suggestion forms in the ofc for members to fill out for the BLC. They can be turned back into the ofc or brought in person to one of their mtgs. Forms should be available for members at the General Membership mtg. BLC mtgs are on the 2nd and 4th Thur of the month, 5-7 PM.
Chip Seal will be on the membership mtg agenda as well to follow up on the membership vote that took place at the last membership mtg. A request was made last week for the board Secretary to include this on the membership mtg agenda under Old Biz.
The board consulted w/an atty and the acts of the membership has been overturned by the board. The board should provide a copy of the atty response letter to the membership since they are basing their decision to overturn the membership on that. We have a right to see the details. Did the attorney know the board hasn't provided any chip seal info to the membership?
There has been numerous opportunities to inform us. ie the newsletter that came w/our road maintenance billings would have been an excellent way to do that. The GM reported at the last board mtg that they're starting chip seal in Feb 2016. A member asked for simple details but the board refused to answer the questions.
All their chip seal discussions continue to be illegal in exec session since there are no provisions in our bylaws for normal business to be conducted other than in open board mtgs.
Article VIII -Board of Directors Sec 9, (d) Executive Session 1. b "An executive session shall be for the purpose of discussing personnel issues, matters of litigation, or matters of attorney/client privilege."
The board is way off course here and seems more and more biz is done there than at board mtgs. They have exec sessions after every board mtg. Exec sessions should only be called when necessary to discuss only those things in our bylaws. Why all the secrecy if there's nothing to hide from the members?
There are 2 large pieces of equipment in the warehouse yard for chip sealing. Are we renting them, and from whom? How much is this costing the association? Or did we purchase them since talk at one time was getting the association on a 5-10 year chip seal plan per the Fugitive Dust Committee that the VP was on? Members were never asked if we wanted to switch from the asphalt plan to chip seal. Why not? If it's for our best interest, than why are we being shut out from that decision?
I was told by some members that several years ago an engineer was consulted to see whether HPP could be a candidate for chip seal. He said no. That is why chip seal didn't proceed the last time it was brought up or since, until now. And why trying to improve our dirt roads was another option until asphalt was laid. We CAN have better dirt roads. Better quality material and professionals involved in grading and compacting it properly. Has anyone noticed red cinder roads create very little dust compared to the material on most of our roads?
Is an engineer involved to try and ensure the project is a successful one for all the various topographies of our roads which impose various issues? ie. flooding. There are more questions than answers.
Have all the proper permits been pulled for this work since chip seal goes outside the parameters of road "maintenance"? The board keeps calling it "maintenance". They are laying emulsion down which is similar to laying asphalt down. Our road crew is inexperienced, red flag. They will require lots of training and will be pulled away from their real road maintenance duties.
It should be the the members' decision since we all have paying for asphalt since the bond was taken out. A 9 member volunteer board w/little biz or road experience shouldn't be excluding over 8,500 lot owners who are/have been paying for asphalt all these years.
Are the board and mgmt going to shoulder all the responsibility if the chip seal fails? They should since they have totally excluded the membership in every aspect of it.
Why won't the board and mgmt take care of real road maintenance issues? We are way overdue for restriping and reapplying reflectors on all our main drags and feeder roads. That's a no brainer safety issue if one can't see the center line during night time driving. Add rain to that...
The albizias on HPP easements are a great concern after witnessing what happened during Tropical Storm Iselle. No strides have been made forward on this. There's a whole squad of young albizias popping up along Kaloli that one day will look like Makuu. Baby steps in ridding the albizias is proactive.
(Edited to improve sentence flow)
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"The arbitration is in motion."
very pleased to read this procedure is being utilized by those displeased with the actions of our board.
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"All their chip seal discussions continue to be illegal in exec session since there are no provisions in our bylaws for normal business to be conducted other than in open board mtgs".
if so...NOT GOOD......WRONG, WRONG ,WRONG
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"Exec sessions should only be called when necessary to discuss only those things in our bylaws"
yes...this gets tiring, doesn't it
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"I was told by some members that several years ago an engineer was consulted to see whether HPP could be a candidate for chip seal. He said no."
yes, I've read this in a report also...but never understood why he said this
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"Have all the proper permits been pulled for this work since chip seal goes outside the parameters of road "maintenance"? The board keeps calling it "maintenance". They are laying emulsion down which is similar to laying asphalt down. Our road crew is inexperienced, red flag."
well, who's in charge? Is this board truly considering violating the law??????? I'm not being sarcastic here.....
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"Has anyone noticed red cinder roads create very little dust compared to the material on most of our roads?"
I concur. There is a street, maybe 4th??? that insisted on nothing but red cinder........and there was a policy passed....."those streets requesting red cinder would be allowed the option." Not sure if the policy has since been overturned.
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Yes 4th between paradise and makuu has red cinder and it gets so washboard eroded it shakes the whole car! kind of like those old hotel bed vibrators!
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well those old hotel bed vibrators were all kinds of fun !!!
(wouldn't want to subject my car to one tho)
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Posted by mermaid 53:
All their chip seal discussions continue to be illegal in exec session since there are no provisions in our bylaws for normal business to be conducted other than in open board mtgs.
Mermaid correctly references the Bylaws restrictions on the permissible content of Executive Sessions. There is an equally important stipulation a few lines further down:
"4. Final actions of the executive session shall be reported and affirmed when the meeting resumes or at the next regular meeting." [Emphasis added]
The debates in Executive Session are confidential, but the results (motions, decisions, resolutions, etc.) must be made public. Can anyone find examples of such reporting to date?
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This is what I have just learned about the BOD meeting last night.
Chip seal will commence on Feb. 24th - 25th.
The board spoke about where and how to put in the new mail boxes. The GM said he's estimates on costs are about $30,000 to $38,000 for the clearing and other work per acre for the 4 lots.
The director's voted to add on to the agenda an agenda item called "legal council".
That turned out to be Janice, a.k.a. The Treasurer, who made a motion (2nd by Jo, the VP of course) to hire an attorney to find out what to do about the notice of arbitration they received. One director had not seen the notice from the American Arbitration Association that the president said he emailed to all the directors so, he didn't know what the AAA had sent. The president said the other directors had a meeting about it on Saturday. Hence, it looks like the motion was planned. Isn't that conducting business at an illegal meeting?
It was mentioned that the board has until Friday to respond to the AAA but that they didn't know what to do. I believe they received the notice from the AAA about 2 weeks ago.
One member in their 3 minute "owners comments" said that he had noticed that the "Notice of Arbitration" was not included on the General Membership meeting agenda. He said that the agenda item was sent to the board secretary and thinks that it should be included since the board is so willing to spend HPPOA money on lawyers and since it concerns every member in the park.
He also advised the board to come up with a budget for the very expensive work to be done on the new mail boxes, that that money is not a part of road maintenance and needs to be voted on by the board first before any thing else is done.
That would be my first thought too, where's the money going to come from to pay for the boxes on 4 different lots that, according to what I understand, would possibly cost about $140,000 (but don't hold me to that amount).
Janet, your comments are correct and the abuse of the executive sessions by the board is one of the 6 issues in the arbitration.
I was given a copy of the "Notice of Arbitration" and I will donate to their efforts as I have been told that the costs of arbitration is coming out of members pockets. I suggest that other interested members donate as well. The 6 arbitration issues and the resultant "demands" that the claimants are seeking relief for were selected, I'm told, and narrowed down out of a very long list of grievances.
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