TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

if you don't mind not getting anything done "now".

I stopped doing anything years ago. I'm waiting for a time machine to be invented. With the cost of technology dropping every year, somebody has to be close to inventing one. Then, when I need to finish something I don't get done now, I can go back into what will be the past by the time I get my time machine. For the rest of my work I'll jump into the future where I'll accomplish everything in much less time with faster electronic chips, bigger memory, and better gizmotrons.

Win win.

“What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends on what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality." -David Bohm

[Obie]

We sent men to the moon with the computing power of a 1980's calculator!

[Eric1600]

quote:

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Originally posted by pahoated

TMT is in it for the competition. They were ahead to becoming King of the Mauna but OBE (overtaken by events). It really is the last dinosaur of ground based optical telescopes. The thickness of the atmosphere is ultimately too limiting as well as the 12-hour viewing time. The cost of launch has dropped unexpectedly so space telescopes are looking much more appealing. The old paradigm of needing gigantic highly polished mirrors is going by the wayside. There is more penetration of space with X-ray and gamma rays. The space based telescopes are robotic and can scan thousands of targets far faster than a human deciding what to look at.

Not getting TMT here is kind of a wash. There are significant discoveries from the existing observatories on Mauna Kea and all that makes the news is the location. If you read further, there will be the team participants and none are living in Hawaii. Observatories are just data gathering stations now, the data processing work is going on elsewhere. More data, more jobs for analysts, but not more jobs for Hawaii. TMT really needs to drop the jobs angle. That was the angle used in the 60's and it never panned out. There is some local construction work in the beginning but the actual astronomy work goes to multinational PhD's, not Hawaii island locals. Wonder how long TMT will stick it out?

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Ugh. So many things wrong here.

TMT will be observing in the northern hemisphere with a unique view of the sky. There is no site better than Maunakea for this, it's not about some fictitious competition. It is definitely not a dinosaur of any type. Astronomy is also about "instrumentation". The problem with space based telescopes is they cost about 10x more or about 10x less size...and more importantly you can not change the instrumentation on a space based telescope. It is also not a gigantic mirror, it is segmented like the Keck pioneered.

X-ray and gamma rays are a completely different category of research from optical research, you can't compare the two directly.

Yes current telescopes are still relevant however time on the TMT will be highly sought after because of its resolution, accuracy and power. There's no comparison. Things discovered by older generation telescopes will all look to the TMT and new generation telescopes to explore and verify. Thinking the TMT is "a wash"...haha.

Many locals work in the telescope programs. Subaru just published numbers showing 42% of their telescope staff is from Hawaii. There are astronomy students FROM Hawaii who have expressed their desire to remain here in Hawaii and support the TMT. Not to mention the UH also has time on the telescope for students.

[TomK]

It makes a very pleasant change that I'm not the one who corrects all of pahoated's misconceptions about astronomy, telescopes and observatories!

The only thing I'll add is that both modern space and ground-based telescopes work the same way when it comes to "scanning" targets. Both use software and human decisions to decide what to observe, and space-based telescopes generally require much more acquisition time compared to those on the ground. For example, at best the Hubble takes 3 minutes to acquire a new field for basic imaging, but much longer for other modes. UKIRT takes a few seconds.

[TomK]

"X-ray and gamma rays are a completely different category of research from optical research, you can't compare the two directly."

Although using data from various wavelengths helps us understand the physics, as you say, there really is no way to compare the data - they are used in conjunction and one wavelength regime can't replace the other. This is a nice example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_astr...00crab.png

[Eric1600]

I would also like to add that thanks to PUEO I've heard many stories now about struggling Hawaiians who have become successful thanks to TMT and other telescope programs.

Here is an example from their https://facebook.com/alohapueo page in response to one of the anti-TMT people:

quote:

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Amber Imai: ...I am one of the "kids" you speak of, and I work at a research firm, I can pay off my student loans. I went to UH Manoa and graduated with an engineering degree. I am a Kanaka Maoli from Keaau. When I went there, our teachers told us we had the lowest test scores in the nation. My teachers told me I would never amount to anything because I am dyslexic. In high school participated in various STEM programs when they were struggling (more than now) like high school robotics, HECO's electric car competition, the Akamai Workforce Initiative, albeit before TMT started the THINK Fund. Those programs (most of which are majorly funded by the THINK Fund) help hundreds of local Big Island students to be able to pursue their dreams. The advances in technology that space science provides allows us the conveniences in life, and helps to advance the medical and food production industries.

My family opposed the previous telescopes being built because of poor practices, but they support TMT because they are doing their best to do whats right by the Hawaiian People.

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(TMT is currently a major funder for THINK and Akamai programs)

[TomK]

Latest poll has Hawaii residents' support for the TMT increasing:

https://newsofhawaii.com/public-support-...increases/

Too little too late I suspect. In addition, I found this interesting:

http://alohapueo.org/governor-ige-meets-pueo-leaders/

"Also expressed to Governor Ige was the concern that students of science in Hawaii have become targets of bullying. This includes reducing some of them to tears over the difficult social situations in their lives, on top of all the worries they have with pursuing their difficult academic studies."

[Guest]

It's Unbelievable that most of Oahu residents voted yes to the TMT. What have they been eating for dinner?

http://westhawaiitoday.com/news/state-wi...nvalidated


Would Oahu voters also vote yes to building the TMT on Diamond Head mountain?

Did the Big Island residents get a vote on Oahu's Railroad project, what were those results like?


After experiencing first hand several "KILL Haole days" in Many of Hawaii's public schools growing up here. I feel The Governor should also be concerned that All those that lack HA in Hawaii may become future targets of bullying AND Hate crimes if the TMT "IS" built atop Mauna Kea, not just the students. Jmo.

[kalakoa]

Unbelievable that most of Oahu residents voted yes to the TMT.

Linked article is about HART, and from 2014. That said ...

Of course Oahu supports TMT, it's not being built on their island. They also support geothermal and wind farms, as long as they're at the end of a big extension cord to the neighbor islands.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

All those that lack HA in Hawaii may become future targets of bullying AND Hate crimes if the TMT "IS" built atop Mauna Kea, not just the students. Jmo.

Are you saying the Protectors are just a bunch of "Kill Haole Days" students who grew into adults, but still act like teenage bullies?

The moon kind of surprises me sometimes. I’ll be out at night and I’ll see a nice moon, and say, “Hey, that looks good.” Then I’ll say, “Oh sh-t, I went up there one time!” Kind of surprises me. It’s like there are two Moons, you know—the one that’s usually around, and then that one. - Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut