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Who built the fishponds before the Tahitians?
#1
Was it the Menehune? are they real? Apparently there's some evidence that Marquesa Islanders settled back in 0 A.D, a good thousand years before the Tahitians arrived with their Kapu caste system. It seemed like a myth at first, but there's a few things that don't add up, like the Alekoko fishpond, or the Kikiaola ditch with the basalt blocks. There's also a record of a group of people being labeled as "menehune" by the Tahitians, it was a designation for a lower caste.

https://menehunerath.files.wordpress.com...ehune.jpeg

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#2
Yes.
"The Hawaiians (1)" you refer to were here long before "The Hawaiians (2)" of the present day. "The Hawaiians (2)" do not prefer to discuss "The Hawaiians (1)" while expounding on Captain Cook, the 1893 overthrow, statehood, or other historical interactions with Europeans. That's why you rarely hear "The Hawaiians (1)" mentioned.

You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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#3
glassnumbers,
If you enjoy reading about the history of Polynesia, may I suggest "Keneti"by Bob Krauss.
(University of Hawaii Press)
"Keneti", is the biography of anthropologist, Kenneth Emory.
It is a fascinating narrative on his Polynesian adventures, research & discoveries which spanned approx.5 decades .
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#4
Thanks guys, I will check that out!

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#5
A lot of the more recent evidence is showing that if there were two migrations at all, they were much closer together than either previous archeology or traditional narrative had suggested. The early carbon dates that showed dates going back to around 300 AD have turned out to be all based on poor samples; all the reliable, uncontaminated samples show dates after 1000.

More definitively in my view, sediments from Makauwahi cave on Kauai and a handful of other sites - which can be dated much more reliably than archeological deposits where a tool might be buried several layers deep, or have mixed sediment - also show signs of sudden human-related changes right around 1000-1200. Charcoal from fires shows up, rat bones appear, the big flightless native birds disappear, etc.

That still doesn't answer exact what the human history was. But it shows that things developed much faster than had been thought. Some people seem to think that this diminishes the Hawaiians' presence here by reducing how long it's been. In my view it makes it all the more amazing that they built up from just a few colonists to a highly developed civilization and infrastructure in just a few hundred years!
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#6
quote:
Originally posted by Midnight Rambler

The early carbon dates that showed dates going back to around 300 AD have turned out to be all based on poor samples; all the reliable, uncontaminated samples show dates after 1000.


This is fascinating to me Midnight. Do you have a pointer to more info?

Cheers,
Kirt
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#7
This is fascinating to me Midnight. Do you have a pointer to more info?

Yes, I'd be interested too. The sources for our earliest Hawaiian discoveries are extremely limited, so this new finding might fill in the historical gaps, or rearrange the depiction of what we know, or thought we knew.

“Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe… What we believe determines what we take to be true.” -David Bohm
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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#8
So after referencing the existence of people from the Marquesas as though it were the truth, just why do or did people think those earlier arrivals occurred? It can't be just a timing thing or else why not assume they were all Tahitians?
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#9
I believe that the previous occupants of the islands are referred to rather extensively in Hawaiian oral history.
Assume the best and ask questions.

Punaweb moderator
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#10
This article talks about some of the things found at Makauwahi, and has a good summary of the various hypotheses and evidence for and against them (note that in some places they give uncalibrated carbon dates first; the accurate date is the second one, calibrated by tree rings):
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dav...000000.pdf

This one, cited in the paper above, has some more detail on the findings. One of the striking things is that the pueo is *not* found in prehuman layers - it seems to have found its way here on its own, but was only able to establish on the islands after rats were introduced (there was another, now-extinct, bird-eating owl here before).
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hel...000000.pdf

IMO, even if only the windward valleys were settled first (a hypothesis suggested by those who still support the early settlement), it's unlikely that all the other changes associated with humans - arrival of rats, extinction of large birds and snails, much greater fire frequency - would not be seen in the fossil record until hundreds of years later. On top of that, the supposed earliest site based on the old dating was South Point! If people were living there early on in settlement (even if not as early as thought), then surely they were living on the south coast of Kauai as well.

One way that the fossil record and oral tradition can be reconciled is if the timeline is tighter. The Hawaiian language is closest to Marquesan, so the Hawaiians almost certainly came from there. There seems to have been a near-simultaneous outflow from that area that settled Hawaii, New Zealand, and Rapa Nui in close succession. But the ones who went east had to get to South America, pick up sweet potatoes, and bring them back before the settlement of NZ and either before or not long after settling Hawaii when travel was still taking place.

So it's entirely possible that Hawaii was first settled by Marquesans around 1000, then a wave of Tahitians arrived (around the time that they were leaving for New Zealand) bringing sweet potatoes and a new political order, maybe around 1100-1200. Its not uncommon for the ruling people to claim to have wiped out the previous inhabitants - just look at the Anglo-Saxons and the Britons, the Franks and the Gauls, the Turks and the Anatolians, the Israelites and the Canaanites, etc., when in reality they simply imposed their rule while the same commoners remained.

And it's worth noting that while Hawaiian society had two main social strata, alii (nobility) and makaainana (free commoners), Tahiti had a third - menehune, who were effectively serfs. It's not hard to see how the story of Hawaii's menehune - cheerful, short, hard-working - could have evolved as a sanitized version of a semi-slave class that no longer (or never) existed here.
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