New poll on big island shows strong TMT support

[kalakoa]

1) gypsy is a he

We've been through this: AI doesn't have a "gender" in the conventional sense.

[MarkD]

Reply to HOTPE

Thank you for correcting me on Gypsy's gender. (Sorry Gypsy)

In fact I read much in Punaweb before commenting for the first time several weeks ago. I might take a position on TMT and Gypsy's comments. We will see.

What interests me more at the moment in Punaweb are the modes of rhetoric. Specifically, how some commentators are challenging people using snide comments, misleading information and, worst, misrepresenting what a person said and then challenging that manufactured view (straw man).

Seems to be quite the hobby for some people.

[PaulW]

I welcome reasonable arguments from anyone. But not declarations of sacredness from someone who once proposed putting a ski resort up there.

[ohiagrrl]

These polls don't reflect what I hear in my communities but they will likely be irrelevant to how the courts will find for the contested TMT site. The issue that started the whole ball rolling legally was the fact that collectively, the BLNR, DLNR, and the University failed to complete several mandates they were legally bound to when attempting to build in a historically and culturally designated area. The longest term mandate required the University to do a 5 year land management review prior to any new construction since they have the lease on the sacred Mauna a Wakea mountain top renamed the Astronomy Park. The lease is up in 2033 and all 13 telescopes are due to be decommissioned. They were simply in a hurry and blew it.

Kalani Flores breaks it down in his testimony on YouTube,(in the first minute so those of you with short attention spans should be able to handle):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6dYeCN9T3c

If the law works as it is supposed to, the courts will find in favor of anti TMT protesters because the departments that are supposed to protect the interests of all parties, tried to fast track a project which OOPS is now really stalled out because of the hubris of the few. Also, clearly no one told those few guilty astronomy park employees that it is bad luck to move or take rocks from sacred sites, something that is grilled into those of us raised here. Are we not seeing the bad luck in action?

I am a TMT proponent who loves me some Hawaiian culture. I am sick that this has happened. If respect had been paid to the host culture and the WESTERN laws set up to protect what little rights Hawaiians still maintain over their sacred sites had been followed, none of this would be happening. The burden of this massive SNAFU is on those who tried to weasle through the process so they could have what they wanted, quickly at the expense of Hawaiian ancestry and current cultural revival, a by product of some serious entitlement which seems to be rampant in the world. To all of you fighting so hard to reason that the "Protectors" are marginal, you work to your own disadvantage. Respect for the past is a small price to pay for a doorway to the future. Hawaiian activists may hold beliefs that are foreign to you but they are actually following the western laws set up for them. There should be space for all parties here but (and hallelujah for this) the clock is slower in Hawaii. They don't call it Hawaiian time for nothing.

Mark D, True dat.

[PaulW]

"it is bad luck to move or take rocks from sacred sites"

Good! The Protestors can get what's coming to them.

[kalakoa]

If respect had been paid to the host culture

Yes. If only we had respected the host culture enough to not build anything in the first place.

While we're at it, we should also stop "disrespecting" them with our Western money, paved roads, welfare checks, Walmart, the airport, etc.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

These polls don't reflect what I hear in my communities

As I asked gypsy (with no reply), and I'd like to ask you as well, how large was your sample size? Do you believe it was enough to accurately reflect the belief of the general population?

Hawaiian activists... are actually following the western laws set up for them.

As PaulW mentioned, they didn't follow either their own cultural laws or Western laws when they "move(d) or take rocks from sacred sites, something that is grilled into those of us raised here." In fact they moved rocks on a scale of thousands to one when compared to the example you mentioned of a recently constructed ahu.

Did "The Protectors" follow Western laws when they camped illegally, blocked roadways illegally, or polluted the sacred mountaintop when they wandered far and wide from the restrooms at the VIS?

etc etc etc

Or do they get a pass for all of the usual reasons, ethnicity, overthrow, it's only desecration if someone else does it...

On the fifth day - the scientists who studied the rivers - were forbidden to speak - or to study the rivers. -Jane Hirshfield's poem on creation

[MarkP]

There is in my opinion a silent majority of Native Hawaiians who just aren't speaking out one way or the other. There is also buyer's remorse. The majority of otherwise enlightened and perceptive Hawaiians who are simply keeping their heads down during this controversy are likely to experience buyer's remorse should this fiasco play out the way it unfortunately looks like it will and Hawaii becomes a laughingstock to the majority of the world that doesn't worship rocks. As we teeter on the brink, the polls may change. Or not. People are also not fond of admitting mistakes.

[PaulW]

"I am a TMT proponent..."

Who do you think you're fooling? Yourself?

[ohiagrrl]

The arrogance of cultural suppression at it's finest, right here on Punatalk. Bullys mocking the community their culture marginalized. I would have liked to see one important telescope rather than a handful of lower tech structures but THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Bulldozing any land up there without cultural oversight.... Uggh. These particular astronomers and their sycophants think Hawaii owes them this mountain. Wrong. However, If the Protectors lose the case because they cant prove religious sovereignty, maybe they can appeal based on scientific advances in Anthropological DNA harvesting techniques.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaenamonta...cave-dirt/

So busy concerning themselves with genetic proof of life on other planets and literally desecrating known anthropological sites right below their feet. What does that bode for treatment of far off worlds? Maybe the astronomy community wouldn't be so uncomfortable here if they hadn't nestled their fat rumps firmly on top of gravesites. It's not just a figure of speech that they have the bones of Hawaiians shoved up their backsides.

As for the extremely vocal, anti-Hawaiian, British expats, it is a hard reality to face but the South Sandwich Isles haven't been part of the Commonwealth for a very long time. Re: Hawaii, she changed back to her maiden name. Maybe she's just not that into you and it's time to move on (or back to Pasadena.)

Hi Gypsy. Don't let the haters get your important voice gone. They moved here because they thought TMT a done deal, invested in land and are now sitting around twiddling their thumbs, spreading propaganda because they just can't imagine losing at anything.

If respecting the past is the key to the future, it's a small price to pay.