New poll on big island shows strong TMT support

[Kenney]

Jeez people, can't we all get along and respect one another?
There is only one race. Human. It doesn't matter what color we are or what our racial identity is.
Under a couple layers of dermis, everybody is the same!

[MarkD]

Moderator Rob to Me

Mark, I was under the impression were were discussing anti-TMT and pro-TMT views.

I ban people very reluctantly.


Hello Rob,

I was referring to the disruption in the Discoveries by Telescopes topic. In the wide range of threads in Punatalk, “Discoveries” stands out. It is highly scientific in nature and has a large readership--possibly some from outside Hawaii.

This thread ought to be free from the hijacking and juvenile bickering that predominates in so many other threads. Debate should be limited to science-related questions, it seems, not TMT construction or any other controversy.

But in that site TomK and PaulW just told me to butt out--so I will.

Sorry to have been presumptuous in bringing up what seemed to be a valid matter. Thanks for replying. Mark

[ohiagrrl]

How would any of you determine that genetic testing would not provide evidence of what races were where and when if the sites have already been bulldozed and mega structures parked on top? Historical timelines and genetic data are the hallmarks of how laws are enacted and enabled to protect indigenous peoples from constant colonial degredation in the name of progress.

Oh crap, Im taking the bait. PW brought up the idea that many vocal advocates for Protectors here on Punatalk tend to be non native and implied a non native would have no right to comment. I asked him if he was white because he was making assumptions about white people. TK says Skin color doesn't matter. Really? Says someone who has never been on the wrong end of that issue. Please.
Kenney is just as right as Rodney King was with the same universal question "why cant we all just get along?" but the inability of the larger populations to don the shoes of the minority is still prevalent in many humans of all shades and as with our sacred mountaintop, it stems from territorial issues, the dominance of resources and the uncanny ability of land barons to divide and conquer peoples of lesser wealth even within the same race. Obama was the best thing to happen to color lines that the US ever saw, I honestly believe his election prevented a race war on the mainland, but do you (collective you) honestly believe he, a non native Hawaiian resident, never got called popolo as a kid or much worse when he was in office? Being quietly embarrassed isnt an option for progress Kenney even if it is the kinder, more gentle way.

MarkD, that approach is emotional, not tactical.

[kalakoa]

universal question "why cant we all just get along?"

Because money.

[Chunkster]

All this stuff about race, DNA, and who got here first is really a distraction from the real subject, the TMT. That very important subject all boils down to a minority within a minority having a veto over the whole economic future of the state. This happened because the state government couldn't competently oversee a permitting process and the majority of the Hawaiians were not willing to assertively overrule the vocal minority who have created their own version of history and culture to suit their current obstructionism.

[kalakoa]

a minority within a minority having a veto over the whole economic future of the state

...by which precedent, "private subdivision" residents should be allowed to control their own land-use -- all "minority" groups are equal under the law, regardless of their DNA.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

How would any of you determine that genetic testing would not provide evidence of what races were where and when if the sites have already been bulldozed and mega structures parked on top?

No one disputes that Native Hawaiians visited Mauna kea and Mauna Loa over the years. DNA testing isn't necessary to make that determination. We all agree it happened whether or not "sites have already been bulldozed and mega structures parked on top."

On the fifth day - the scientists who studied the rivers - were forbidden to speak - or to study the rivers. -Jane Hirshfield's poem on creation

[Kenney]

I do understand your efforts to protect your Native lands, and furthermore I agree with a lot you have to say.
I am not lilly white. I got called "Mexican" when I was growing up where everybody was whiter than me. Luckily, I have never cared what strangers think of me, so I ignore the idiots. Besides, I like Mexicans! I like everybody unless they give me a good reason not to.
I am Native American, and a Tribal Member. My Tribe ( La Courte Oriells, Chippewa in White man's language) ) has been through some of the same things Native Hawaiians are going through now. Native lands stolen. No more wild rice, wild blueberry and fresh fish caught in Lake Superior like in my Grandmother's days. There are just big industrial complexes polluting the water and land where our "happy hunting grounds" were. Most Native Americans no longer live on their ansestorial lands and are scattered all over, many in Canada. Alcaholism and drug abuse are rampant. This happens because of loss of identity, cultural practices, homelands.
I hope you succeed in preserving your land and culture. Learn from our mistakes. Native Americans are supporting your efforts, as Hawaiians have supported ours.
Meantime, I still say from professional experience that Everybody has more in common than not. We are all human.
I see much more hope for Hawaiians than for American Indians who are still getting screwed out of their lands. (Look at Standing Rock. Sickening.)
Your Royalty had the foresight to provide for their people's education and medical care. That is a huge advantage.
My people have a Casino. Woopie!!!

[ohiagrrl]

C'mon Chunkster,Do you also believe that Judge Derrick Watson had no right to overrule the Muslim Travel Ban? Opposition in the Jeff Sessions camp has the same arguement, "Who is Hawaii to make decisions for the Mainland??" In my opinion, and based on many conversations amongst more moderate locals, the silent majority are showing support by not opposing.
Re: "Hawaiian obstructionism" having an effect on the economic future of the State....lol!Tourism brought 800,000 people to the volcano alone last summer. Considering whole busloads of Japanese tourists used to surround me as a child down at Punalu'u to take pictures with a "Hawaiian", I would hazard a guess that tourists want to be around Hawaiians as well.
TMT proposed they would bring 26 million to the state annually but most of that was through trickle down economics from well paid technicians and closed loop with the University. Dont kid yourself. The thing we agree on is that the State and University brought this all down on themselves and is highly embarrassing. Heads may roll.

Kenney! Short Ears! I am part Cherokee on my paternal grandmother's side. I bicycled across the US and Ontario when I was a young adult. The First People Nations there are so tied to the land its as if everytime someone pollutes it takes a collective toll on the population who dont have the ability to seperate from nature.

[kalakoa]

It all makes perfect sense:

State is simply dragging their feet until TMT goes away.

Once TMT leaves, the underlying issues no longer need to be addressed.

Quick, decisive action against the "travel ban" shows that State can make decisions when they want to. Especially if it's about other people who don't live here.

Re: "Hawaiian obstructionism" having an effect on the economic future of the State....

State is already perceived as "a bad place to do business". Losing TMT will validate that perception. We won't get any new business that doesn't fit into an existing mall. Tourists will still visit, until the accomodations can't keep up with offerings elsewhere (see also: Banyan Drive).