Island Coffee farms looked at by ICE officials.

[Kapoho Joe]

I expect someone here illegally, without proper legal standing to be here, to hold themselves to a higher standard. Kinda how I expect a bank robber(or any other criminal) to lay low.

[leilanidude]

quote:

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Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge

leilanidude says:
HOTPE - the fact that the state is just beginning to issue drivers licenses to illegals, has nothing to do with the Ortiz case.
...
you could not possibly have a drivers license! Actually, I do not believe you can now, either,

How many people do you think drive without a driver's license in Hawaii County? How many drive without insurance? How many drive drunk? I'm not saying it's OK to do so, but when the practice is as pervasive as it is here, to the extent that insurance companies expect insured drivers to carry uninsured motorist coverage, it's a problem that's no doubt difficult for the police and courts to keep up with.

If your strongest argument is that Ortiz should be deported because of a driving issue, it's difficult for me to render significance to that point when he's one out of thousands and thousands.

Did he break a law. Yes. But how serious do you consider his action? Knowing the number of uninsured, unlicensed, and drunk individuals on the road at any given time in Puna and Hawaii County, do you consider the risk so high it prevents you from driving where you want to go?

If the answer is no, then trumping up the driving charge on Ortiz is obviously not as strong an argument as you'd like to make it appear.

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Wow.

You downplay 2 DUI's, driving without a license and no insurance, because "everyone's doing it".

Explain your belief to the ladies at MADD. [:0]

[kalakoa]

immigrant labor ... Good for business sure, but detrimental for the community at large.

Yet that "business" is part of the "community at large". If the business fails for lack of workers, how is that not "detrimental" for the "community at large"?

So should the law pass, Mr. Ortiz would be able to stay in Hawaii, legally. Following the rules.

It's easy to "follow the rules" when you get one handcrafted for you personally.

At the time that he got the TWO DUI's, in Hawaii, Hawaii did not allow illegals to obtain a driver's license.

Hawaii also honors your foreign license until it expires -- most other states require you to "convert" to their native license within a certain time; California gives you 10 days, after which they can charge you for "driving without a license" because whatever license you hold is no longer considered "valid".

Even if you purchase insurance while illegally here without a valid license

There are insurance companies that will bind "non-licensed" persons, and in most cases, valid insurance is more important than a valid license. (Personal experience: traffic stop with insurance and no license, $100 fine -- but license and no insurance is $500 + impounded vehicle + license suspension.)

[leilanidude]

Hawaii also honors your foreign license until it expires...
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I do not believe Mexico allowed, even way back then, a 15 year old to get a full license. Even so, it would have expired long ago.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Wow.
You downplay 2 DUI's, driving without a license and no insurance, because "everyone's doing it".

That is not what I said.
At all.
Your main point has been this drivers license issue. To which I said:

Did he break a law. Yes.

My assertion, if you would like to reread my post, is that his driving, while an issue, is not the main issue. You have tried to attach a level of critical danger to his actions that doesn't match the actual risk. Can a drunk driver kill someone? Certainly. Does getting deported for drunk driving match the punishment meted out to other drunk drivers? Not even close.

Ortiz is not the Hindenburg, bursting into flames as you would like to make him out to be. He didn't have an accident. In reality, he's the Goodyear blimp who had trouble landing.

Let me offer one more example. Should Ortiz be deported due to a mistake that he made, so much so that we should ignore and reject any of the good he might have accomplished at the same time? Isn't that like saying a person who stated "you could not possibly have a drivers license! Actually, I do not believe you can now, either," can't be trusted to say anything believable or correct about Hawaii driving, and all of his comments about driving in Hawaii should be ignored?

Or is it possible get it wrong on occasion, and still be correct and accomplished in many other ways?

[leilanidude]

He broke multiple laws, multiple times and society has deemed DUI as very serious, hence the large fines and possible jail terms.

I stand by my statement that he could not have had a drivers license, when he committed the multiple DUI's. If you see my other post, he didn't have a license still, in 2007, when he got convicted of speeding, driving without a license and having no insurance.

It wasn't until Jan 2016 that Hawaii began allowing illegals to get a license. Also, the DUI limit was .10 at the time he got both DUI's, not the lower .08 that it is now. Your assertion in an earlier post that "he had one drink too many" is interesting. how do you know how many drinks he had for both DUI's? Maybe he had 5 drinks too many?

edit to add:
He could not have had an international drivers license either. You must be at least 18 to get one and have a valid license from your home country/state to begin with. Since he illegally arrived in the US when he was 15, he had neither.

[kalakoa]

Even so, it would have expired long ago.

Before REAL ID, New Mexico was issuing licenses with 25-year expiration.

Should Ortiz be deported due to a mistake that he made, so much so that we should ignore and reject any of the good he might have accomplished at the same time?

How about: DUI conviction results in loss of citizenship, after which you are deported to the country of your choice. (It's not much of a stretch; the prison industry would reap huge benefits if incarceration no longer had to consider the human rights granted to citizens.)

[Eric1600]

The real issue shouldn't be about everyone searching to find reasons to justify ICE's recent actions. The discussion should be about the immigration policy. There is a reason there are illegals who work the **** jobs and the policy has not been changed.

* Large farms can exploit them much easier.
* Few people really care about the immigrant laborers.
* Also many work in the system and pay taxes but can not get the benefits or representation. When deported their assets and savings accounts can get seized.
* It's extremely difficult for a poor laborer to pay the fees, fill out all the required paperwork AND get approval. The immigration department tracks rejection rates for it's over 75 different non-immigrant visa types https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e...visas.html but they don't publish rejection rates for immigration visas -- probably for a reason.
* Intensionally keeping the immigration policy broken is done on purpose because people with money, lawyers or in-demand job skills can qualify for visas and residency status, whereas laborers are forced into the black markets and often languish there.
* Every time an applicant is rejected they loose their application fees, which can be quite expensive and also is a good source of government revenue.
* The US only operates visa application offices in a few locations and people applying have to travel and wait at those locations because if they miss a meeting they get rejected.


Zero tolerance on immigration status isn't a very American policy until recently. We see more people from Hawaii being effected:

* Herbert Carino Asylum denied: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...go-duterte
* Deportation on Ortiz on 30 day hold: http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/06/08...portation/

Should deportation become the new standard of punishment for everyone to be fair? Got a DUI? Drug conviction? Off to Australia with you on the ships, just like the old days.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

how do you know how many drinks he had for both DUI's?

I have no idea how many drinks he had. "One drink too many" is a figure of speech, not a breathalyzer analysis.


He broke multiple laws, multiple times

Even though he broke laws that under different circumstances may have caused serious injuries IF he had an accident, can we agree that he didn't in fact, either have an accident, or injure anyone?

[kalakoa]

The discussion should be about the immigration policy.

There is a related discussion: if there were no exploitable workers, who would clean the toilets? How much would a "legal" citizen demand for that work, and how much overhead (taxes, healthcare, etc) would their employer have to contribute in order to employ them?

Will the market tolerate a $10 latte or a $15 Big Mac?