TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

If the TMT was built on Mauna Kea who really stands to benefit? Island Keiki,

Yes! You've finally figured it out.
Schools and students receive funding and scholarships from the TMT. Then in college if a student decides to pursue a career in astronomy, they will be qualified to work at one of the observatories and can apply for a job there.

If a student doesn't wish to pursue a career in astronomy, they wouldn't have the necessary background to work at an observatory. It's not up to the TMT to hire local residents, local residents must first become astronomers (or related) tten apply for a job at the facility.

A question for gypsy:
Should a certain number of local keiki be forced to major in astronomy at university to fulfill a gypsy-quota of local astronomers? Should local parents force their children to become astronomers even if their keiki don't want to? Should observatories hire unqualified workers to make gypsy happy that a certain percentage are Big Island residents?

gypsy, do any of your keiki plan to become astronomers, and if not, do you encourage them to study all of the math, physics and STEM courses available in high school? Have you encouraged any of your keiki to attend college with a major in astronomy? If not, where do think local astronomers will come from?

(It's) what the existentialists called "awful freedom" the reinvention of irrationality by marginalized people, just in order to spite science. -Elif Batuman

[kalakoa]

With equal opportunity and education provided, I believe Several hundred Hawaiians would be capable of doing the jobs at the observatories.

I always thought it was strange (and extra expensive) when the corporates fly a crew in from the mainland.

Then I hired some locals to do work at my place.

It's going to take more than "equal opportunity" to make the Hawaiians "capable".

[TomK]

There really is no point answering Gypsy's questions as all of them have been answered before, several times, yet he either ignores or forgets the answers and then asks the same questions over and over again. It's a pointless exercise.

[TomK]

HOTPE,

"If a student doesn't wish to pursue a career in astronomy, they wouldn't have the necessary background to work at an observatory. It's not up to the TMT to hire local residents, local residents must first become astronomers (or related) then apply for a job at the facility."

I just want to clarify this. Astronomers are by far and away the minority amongst observatory staff. We also have engineers, technicians, computing and software people, admin staff as well as people who work in public relations or outreach. In the office I work, typically 50% of those positions are taken up by locals (I tend not to go around and ask people if they are Hawaiian or not, doesn't seem very polite to me).

For the technical jobs you certainly need to be good in the STEM subjects, but not for all observatory positions. I would also add that in most cases, astronomers didn't major in astronomy, instead, it was in physics although these days many universities offer courses in astrophysics (that wasn't so common in my day!). For me, I did major in astronomy, but the PhD afterward would certainly be counted as astrophysics.

The TMT and the other observatories have been concentrating on funding STEM scholarships and grants for those studying in Hawaii, but it's not necessarily to make them astronomers or work at the observatories, it's to help provide students the opportunity to move into areas that make significant contributions in fields that benefit us all as well as the student.

[Guest]

No real surprise here:

http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2017/0...mendation/

Most locals here knew the fix was in from the beginning of the contested case hearing and i have to agree that they were right.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Most locals here knew the fix was in from the beginning... and i have to agree that they were right.

The hearing allowed anyone to say whatever they wanted to say, just like some people here on Punaweb say whatever they like, with no grounded basis in fact or reality.
Now, just because words can go into the record, doesn't mean they can be considered in the final decision, especially if they're wildly inaccurate.

I view some of the TMT hearing testimony like shopping for eggs. If you go in the grocery store there is a brand that says "MAUNA KEA" in large red letters all over the egg carton. The fine print however, says "Mainland eggs, shell protected."

You can shout Mauna Kea all you want, as loud as you want, but it doesn't mean everything else you say has anything to do with the real Mauna Kea.

(It's) what the existentialists called "awful freedom" the reinvention of irrationality by marginalized people, just in order to spite science. -Elif Batuman

[MarkP]

I knew the fix was in when I saw police standing by while protesters illegally confronted citizens on the road, threatened the lives of others by blocking the road with rocks, and other crimes.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

I just want to clarify this. Astronomers are by far and away the minority amongst observatory staff.

Thanks TomK, I always forget about the support staff required. My experience with observatories is quite limited, two on Haleakala back in the '90's. The workers there were by and large scientists, who seemed to speak mainly in mathematical and physics equations, except in the lunchroom. At least whenever I would catch a conversation between them. Otherwise there were only two guards in the entryway in the building at the summit.

The ancillary facility outside of Kahului, however was where most of the support staff worked, in a building probably ten times the size of the observatory itself. That tends to slip my mind as I never needed to go into that part of the operation.

Thanks for the reminder, and pointing out the importance of non-astronomers and non-scientists who work in many fields other than the scientific at the observatories here in Hawaii.

(It's) what the existentialists called "awful freedom" the reinvention of irrationality by marginalized people, just in order to spite science. -Elif Batuman

[TomK]

HOTPE - yes, that's pretty much how it works (although we don't have guards on MK!). Although many of the MK observatories have moved to remote operations, typically an observatory at night will have a couple of astronomers working at night and during the day, far more support staff will be there for maintenance, instrument changes and fixing problems. The computing and admin staff tend to stay at the base facility, but not always, and if a computer needs fixing you'll often find them at the telescope as well during the day. Even some admin people have to go up on occasion.

A major observatory requires a massive amount of support (the TMT more so than any if it gets built, it's so complex) and most of that is not done by astronomers, although some of us like to be involved in both areas. Much of its multi-year construction would also be done by locals, just like the other observatories.

As for using the language of physics and astronomy at the observatory, yes, that definitely happens, it's necessary for what we're actually doing, but I can assure you during a long night on MK we'll also talk and joke just like normal people! We'd go nuts if we didn't.

[randomq]

Since this is taking so long, I often wonder if the TMT folks wish to scale up the plans to 40 meters to make up for lost time and competition. Too bad that would probably mean another decade of red tape.