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Yes, it was Kilimanjaro, essentially blind at the summit followed by a rapid descent to 10,000 ft. under my own power; long story. To make it brief, follow your personal doctor's instructions, and do not defer to the "medically trained" guides. Lesson learned.
I have also trekked in Nepal, only up to slightly above 17,000 ft. in the Gokyo Lakes area, no problems with altitude that time. But a travel companion had to be helicoptered out after only a day of hiking out of Lukla. Her travel buddy who had been to Nepal multiple times told her she didn't need Diamox even though she had had some altitude problems skiing up at Mammoth in California. What a jerk. She spent half her vacation in the hospital in Kathmandu recovering from severe dehydration while he completed the trek. Again, trust your personal physician, not others.
(Edit: oh, and yes, have spent several days in the Andes -- Cuzco and visited Machu Picchu, but didn't do the full trek, and no Diamox needed.)
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There is no difference between the air at sea level and that at 14,000' other than that the air molecules are farther apart the higher you go. If you take a bag of sea level air up on the mountain the air will expand and will be functionally the same as the air already there.
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Exactly. I made fun of balloons exploding but it's partial pressure that's important. Oxygen is still there and roughly in the same amount as it is at sea-level (there's a small relative difference with other molecules as some are heavier) but your lungs will not process the oxygen as efficiently as it does at sea level because the pressure isn't here to force it into your lungs. Breathing supplemental oxygen will not help other than making you feel better.
Pressure breathing will help if you are having problems (breathing out forcibly through your mouth - making a small enough gap to let the air out but increasing pressure in your lungs), but that's a short-term fix and you need to know how to do it. In any case, you'll be knackered after doing that for a few minutes.
I'm not a medical expert but have had to rescue many from MK's summit. Even those that claim to be protesters and worship Hawaiian gods. Just please be careful before heading up to MK's summit and understand you might be putting yourself at risk, as well as others. If you don't get that we'll do our best to help if we can.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
If you don't get that we'll do our best to help if we can.
Do you stock dexamethasone up there? I believe that's the stuff to take at onset of AMS symptoms, for those who can't get down ASAP.
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OK folks, sorry that I have been sidetracked.
Since my last post there has been a lot of discussion about carrying air from lower altitudes, supplemental O2 and onwards.
to understand what is at work here you need to know a little bit about gas laws, and the physiology of respiration.
What determines the amount of O2 available for respiration is the partial pressure of the O2 in the breathing gas.
To make more O2 available in a lower pressure environment the percentage of O2 needs to be increased.
Bringing air from a lower altitude in a container does nothing because it will have the same percentage of O2 at the same pressure as the ambient air at altitude.
The percentage of O2 is still the same.
The small canister of O2 terracore referred to could do the job if it were large enough.
What would be needed is a bottle of medical O2 trickling an O2 stream into the air being breathed, say one of those O2 supplemental tubes used in a hospital, or used by people that carry an O2 bottle because of lung damage, capable of supplying a stream of O2 for the whole period of exertion.
An oral-nasal would also do the job.
As far as My $0.02's worries about dangers of using O2, other than fire dangers, and the dangers of dealing with containers of high pressure gasses, those only need to be worried about when being used at higher pp's, usually when approaching 2 atmospheres.
The only other possible thing of concern is the dryness of the bottled O2.
It conceivably could be a problem with drying the lining on the lungs out.
The percentage of O2, or any gas in a mixture, does not change with altitude, only the concentration of all the gasses in the mixture.
They are all thinner at higher altitudes but still have the same percentages [gas laws at work].
My knowledge about this comes from having been a working diver, having worked at depths up to 300' and having needed to decompress on O2 a number of times during which I have need to deal with another diver being subject to oxygen poisoning while confined in a hyperbaric chamber.
O2 poisoning is nothing to worry about at altitude.
The greatest problem I see is that an Rx is needed to obtain medical O2.
Then, the bottle and gear costs for just one ski trip.
I find it hard to justify.
As far as PaulW's reference to Diamox, I have not looked into it because, unless it affects the pp of available O2 in the breathing gas, I see it as nothing to give consideration to.
Having said that, I'm reminded of someone saying:
I've made up my mind. Don't try to confuse the issue with facts.
Without being shown where I'm wrong, I see it as a lost cause.
OK, I'm done for now.
EDIT:
OK, I did look at Diamox.
Scary stuff.
It might be of use for extended periods of high altitude exposure.
I still do not see it to be of use for myself for short periods of exposure, definitely not as a prophylactic for short term exposure where I have never shown signs of altitude sickness.
My concern is for the low pp of O2, not altitude sickness and the cerebral and pulmonary edemas that can accompany it.
Got more rain today.
Snow should still be accumulating on the mountain.
Welcome to Puna, the land of the Vocal Lunatic Fringe.
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Was a Democrat until gun control became a knee jerk, then a Republican until the crazies took over, back to being a nonpartisan again.
This time, I can no longer participate in the primary.
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Voyager - I don't think anyone has criticized your contributions to the thread, in fact, I think they have been a very useful input into the discussion. I've certainly not tried to criticize your posts and am sorry if you think otherwise. You brought up things others might not know about.
Durian Fiend - Our observatory certainly doesn't stock dexamethasone but I can't speak for other observatories. However, I would be surprised if they did. I had to look up that medication and my reasoning is this:
1) Dexamethasone appears to be a prescription medicine. Even if it helps someone suffering acute altitude sickness, I believe it would be against the law for us to administer such a drug to someone as we don't have medical training beyond first-aid/CPR/AED. To give someone a prescription drug they haven't been prescribed would mean whoever was trying to help would make themselves liable to prosecution, even if they were doing all they could to help.
2) We stopped having a supply of medical oxygen at the summit for the same reason. It needs suitably qualified medical personnel to administer. We only have the regular oxygen bottles any workplace might have that doesn't require you to adjust settings. IIRC, it delivers two liters of O2 per minute and you can't stop that until the bottle is empty. Then you get another bottle if you have to. We have several.
3) We already have a plan with Big Island emergency services in the event of a medical emergency. The main idea is that we can get them down to a lower altitude very quickly (we even have an emergency evacuation vehicle with a siren and lights if it becomes necessary). The turn-off from the Saddle Road onto the summit access road is an agreed meeting place where the medics can take over.
4) This is why observatory staff are ultra-cautious when there is bad weather. Any sign of icing or snow on the summit roads that might trap people at the summit means we evacuate ASAP. In that case, we may not be able to help rescue someone although obviously, we'll do what we can.
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Tom, I have interpreted nothing here as being critical of me.
Even if I had, what difference does it make?
This is Puna Web.
All I was trying to do is offer some clarifications for some of the recent posts in relation to my posts.
No criticisms intended in those either, just trying to steer what I see as digressions from my inquiries back towards them in order to get some useful information.
Which, I know, can be a lost cause around here, no criticism intended.
Welcome to Puna, the land of the Vocal Lunatic Fringe.
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Was a Democrat until gun control became a knee jerk, then a Republican until the crazies took over, back to being a nonpartisan again.
This time, I can no longer participate in the primary.
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Thanks! I was worried I had upset you but good to know I didn't. Thank you.
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No heavy rain to get me thinking of snow again.
So, I'm just getting back to take another look at the thread.
The only time I've seen seen you being critical of anyone around here was when it was way over due and much less than it should have been.
Working my way back to this thread, I began 3 or 4 post that I ended up deleting before actually posting them.
I did get to say what I was thinking, but don't have to live with the results of having said them.
Welcome to Puna, the land of the Vocal Lunatic Fringe.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Was a Democrat until gun control became a knee jerk, then a Republican until the crazies took over, back to being a nonpartisan again.
This time, I can no longer participate in the primary.
Posts: 10,236
Threads: 345
Joined: Apr 2009
"The only time I've seen seen you being critical of anyone around here was when it was way over due and much less than it should have been."
Thank you. I tend to understate things, it's what I do, but when someone steps over the line I might say something some might interpret as a "bit annoyed".
We're not expecting any major snowfall on MK for the next week or so, but do think we might get some in the next couple of months. Just a gut feeling given previous history.
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