Licensing in Hawaii

[JerryCarr]

After years of exposure to the BI way of doing things, there are still some issues I just don't get. What is the deal with building and home improvement trades' licensing in Hawaii County?

It seems like a good many specialty tradespeople are either unwilling or unable to get licensed. The unlicensed folks I have managed to get to talk about it say that the licensed people lobby to make it extremely hard to be licensed to cut down on competition and insure that they can charge more. The licensed guys say the unlicensed are unqualified and that it is not really that hard to get licensed. The truth is probably somewhere in between, as usual, but I would love to hear somebody with inside knowledge speak honestly on the subject.

I know that licensing of all sorts of professionals is theoretically to protect the consumer, but some other aspects of the Hawaii regulatory environment seem to be designed to protect entrenched interests more than the consumer, IMHO.

Cheers,
Jerry



Edited by - JerryCarr on 08/18/2006 17:55:03

[haoleboy]

I think there is a lot of truth to that anywhere, not just Hawaii. And just because someone is licensed, is no guarantee that their work is good, or they are reputable.

Aloha

"Drop out of school before your mind rots from our mediocre educational system."-Frank Zappa

[toucano]

Hawaii is one of the few jurisdictions I know of that prohibit electrical and/or plumbing by owner builders.

Here is a blurb from Miami-Dade County RE owner-builder electrical work. I wonder if electricity is less dangerous in Florida?

What Are The Requirements For Owner-builders ?
Owner-builder applicants making application for a electrical permit should be advised of the following provisions and requirements that apply to owner-builders:

Proof of Ownership: Prior to a electrical permit being issued to you, your must submit proof of ownership of the land concerned in the application in a form of a recorded deed, showing you own the property, or a copy of mortgage or warranty deed of the land, showing you are obligated to purchase the property, or a Dade County tax receipt, statement to contain legal description of property and indicate property is in your name. Legal description and name on document of proof must correspond to the name and legal description on the application or as defined in the South Florida Building Code, page 4-1, section 401.

Insurance: You should be advised that your day labor employees cause any damage to persons or property, or if any of your day labor employees are injured on the job, you are liable. Your regular home insurance policy ordinarily does not cover this type of liability.

Restrictions for Owner-Builders: An owner-builder, subject to the foregoing provisions and requirements, is limited to constructing one single family or duplex residence each year for his/her own or erecting a one story electrical of not more than 500 square feet for commercial or industrial use, or adding a first floor addition of not more than 500 square feet to a commercial or industrial electrical; or maintenance or repairs and non-structural alterations, not to exceed $5,000.00 on any electrical which he/she owners or leases. If you do not intend to do the work involved yourself, or with day labor, please list below, the name of the individual or firm with whom you have entered (or will enter) into a contract for the work.

[JerryCarr]

Aloha, Toucano. Electrical and plumbing work have to pass an inspection before being finaled, right? If the inspection checklist is rigourous enough and the inspector is competent, why should it matter who did it? I am sure the County bureaucrats would tell us that the rule is for "failsafe protection," but it does seem a bit much.

Cheers,
Jerry

[nanasohana]

I have completely wired 3 homes now and anyone who will educate themselves can do this. But of course here you have to have a licensed electrician. Now its good to have a currently licensed electrican to at least come check your work as the codes update and you sure could miss something.

[toucano]

Other jurisdictions seem to have figured out a permitting and inspection system that allows owner-builders to SAFELY do electrical and/or plumbing.

The dependence on a monopoly of licensed people to do those tasks here not only makes it it more expensive that can be justified by any rise in material prices, but it adds far too much time to the building process.

I suspect that some of the building restrictions here add to the desire/need to go the unpermitted building route: pull your permit, build as you wish, and never bother to get a final.

Could this be changed? Sure. But I think that pigs will fly before thay happens.

[loffelkopffl]

as far as the county requiring licensed electricians and plumbers, it's probably a CYA situation

i have a couple of friends that got their licenses, it takes time, work, and some money, but not that difficult

i remember years ago in oregon it cost $20 to get a GC license, now if that isn't scary(don't know if that's still the case)

[toucano]

Below is what Hawaii requires for licensing electricians. From http://www.contractors-license.org/hi/Hawaii.html

Not implying it is bad in any way. But I don't think that average owner-builder is interested in taking that much time to be allowed to wire their own home. Nor do most other states who rely on their building department inspectors to inspect the work done by an owner-builder and pass/fail it on the same basis as that done by a licensed electrician.

License Type Requirements
Supervising Electrician 4 years experience as a licensed journey worker electrician or equivalent
Journey Worker Electrician 5 years but not less that 10,000 hours of all aspects of electrical wiring work, primarily involved in residential and commercial wiring
Supervising Industrial Electrician 4 years experience as a licensed journey worker industrial electrician or equivalent
Journey Worker Industrial Electrician 5 years but not less that 10,000 hours of industrial wiring work
Maintenance Electrician 1 year electrical maintenance wiring work or 2 years electrical trade schooling
Supervising Specialty Electrician 4 years experience as a licensed journey worker specialty electrician or equivalent
Journey Worker Specialty Electrician

[Kapohocat]

Just as an example, I have a friend who has been and still is a licensed general contractor in California for over 30 years. His license is not transferable to Hawaii, and additional he was told that he does not have enough experience working under a licensed general contractor in Hawaii to qualify at this time. He was told he needs 4 years experience. He has already built 2 homes here for himself. He can well afford the bonding issues, financial submittals are clean, no DCCA issues in California.... but still 4 years experience? So he is circumventing the law by getting the final, then painting, flooring, etc, anything not required for final - living in it to suit the owner/builder requirements and then selling.

What I have found is that Hawaii is very protective of licensing UNLESS it is something the state is running low on - say X-ray techs or nurses who can transfer licenses for $20. Architects, attorneys, builders can not. ( I am sure there are many others). Hawaii is one of the few states that doesnt "reciprocate" on many licenses.

IMHO, although the OB law & licensing is said to protect, I truly believe it was orginally set up to protect contractors. It came onto the books in the late 80'swhen construction was at a very low.

-Cat

[Hazen]

Hey All,

As an unlicensed contractor, er "handyman" I mean, I can speak some on this issue. I personally believe that for plumbers and electricians doing any large amount of work that the experience you gain as a journeyman is paramount to doing a good job. In such cases a good job is a safe job, an electrical fire, or flood can be REALLY expensive. For this reason, the insurance and experience you get from a licensed outfit is important.

But that said, many licensed outfits hire and employee horribly deliquent persons. Inneptitude whether due to a substance problem, ignorance, or sheer lack of integrity is common. So check your contractors references. Also check your homeowners policy, sometimes you need work done by a licensed worker, though many just claim they did the work themselves. generally I "believe", really not sure here, that the homeowner can usually get screwed over if things get ugly; licensed or not.

Most banks require licensed contractors if they are going to fund your new home. That is a big reason for licensing. Now, I personally will wire and plumb the vast majority if not all of my home. If I have a question I will not hesitate to call a Pro friend or consult a book. If you are experienced and skilled you could also do your own work. There is a moving target when it comes to knowing enough as a homeowner to not overlook things, but not get taken to the cleaners for a $50/hr plumber/electrician. Remember though, when it comes to weird situations as it often does here in Puna an approval or consult form a pro can avoid huge problems later. Just make sure that you can run whatever the pro says by someone else with knowledge. ust like when you have work done on your car. Resist the urge to take the good news over the less desireable advice. Sometimes things are complicated, your brother's roomates' cousin who wired condos in Nicaragua for a summer when he was 19 may have a great price and tell you that you don't need to worry about wasteline slope or dedicated circuits, and he may be really nice and very affordable. But...... better to buy your neighbor the plumber a six pack and ask him to look at something for you. Just don't try to wheedle and favors out of him.

I might recommend journeyman who are not yet licensed but have years of experience. They often moonlight and many times are more motivated because they haven't been crawling under houses and through attics for 30 years yet.

I personally find licensing to be problematic for a few reasons:
1. $$$, it will cost you a lot more because the contractor will be paying taxes on themselves and employees.
2. $$$, Bonds, and Insurance are not cheap. Neither is the accountant you have to pay to help you navigate all the paperwork you now need to spend an extra 5 hours a week doing.

The issue of getting a license is moot, it is neither prohibitively expensive nor difficult. If i were to be doing commercial work, or running multiple work crews at multiple sites, I would go legal. I'm not. So I don't do any more work than the amount limited by law for unlicensed contractors.

My two cents.

Hazen