What is your cost of living?

[glinda]

From: http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/01/22/...ns-hawaii/

You’ve heard a lot about a ‘living wage.’ Here’s what that actually means in Hawaii

There’s lot of talk at the Legislature this session about the so-called “living wage.”

In opening day ceremonies, several legislative leaders said they’d take up proposals to boost the minimum wage in the state to $15 an hour (from $10.10 an hour or $21,008 a year).

And during his State of the State address, Gov. David Ige said he’d submit legislation to bring Hawaii’s minimum wage “closer to a real living wage.”

But what does the living wage actually mean?

So what is the "real" cost of living for folks? Are the figures given at the linked article, $12.92 on the Big Island, real?

[birdmove]

Drastically different from Honolulu to Pahoa. I wouldn't thonk anyone could live near Honoluku for $15 an hour without living in their car.

Jon in Keaau/HPP

[jrw]

I dont see how $12.92 is even close to a living wage .That roughly $2ooo.oo a month you pay about 20% in income tax that brings it down to 1800.00.Average rents $1000.00. That leaves you 800.00 to buy food which is if you eat rice and beans is going cost about $350.Then you have to have car which. is going cost you gas and repairs and insurance. That leaves very little for any can of any other expense that pops up which youknow it does.

jrw

[terracore]

When I was a kid, minimum wage had no correlation to "living wage". We were living with our parents and were willing to accept a lower wage in exchange for work experience.

Sort of how our legislators who push their leftist agendas have unpaid interns. The "living wage" doesn't apply to them as employers because their interns don't really need to pay back their college loans as long as they aren't making any money. (?)

There are a lot of people in situations who don't need to earn a large enough income to raise a household on. Many of them just need extra cash for weed (or whatever) or are looking for work experience. Sort of like the unpaid interns that only the "elite" think they should have access to.

But what do I know... here's a Nobel prize recipient's take on it:

"The minimum wage law requires employers to discriminate against persons with low skills. No one describes it that way, but that is in fact what it is. Take a poorly educated teenager with little skill whose services are worth, say, only $2.00 an hour (in 1979). He or she might be eager to work for that wage in order to acquire greater skills that would permit a better job. The law says that such a person may be hired only if the employer is willing to pay him or her (in 1979) $2.90 an hour. Unless an employer is willing to add 90 cents in charity to the $2.00 that the person’s services are worth, the teenager will not be employed. It has always been a mystery to us why a young person is better off unemployed from a job that would pay $2.90 an hour than employed at a job that does pay $2.00 an hour."

-Milton Friedman, (1976 Nobel Prize recipient)

In other words, the "real" minimum wage is zero: The amount of money a business is willing to pay a potential employee when the minimum wage is $15 but the candidate has a $10/hour skill set.

I don't approach this topic pedantically. We have had small businesses over the years that paid employees hourly wages (all above minimum wage, by the way, meanwhile as owners we were sometimes paid nothing). If they institute "living wages" when "minimum wages" will do, the small businesses least able to provide the "charity" Friedman talked about above will close down, and the large corporations like Walmart will replace their footprint. Small businesses aren't greedy, in fact many small business owners make less money than their employees. People forget that whatever the wage is, the out-of-pocket cost is way more than that. After factoring all the various taxes and insurances, a $10/hour employee costs the business $20/hour, a $15/hour employee cost $30, etc.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Sort of how our legislators who push their leftist agendas have unpaid interns.

How does that compare with the amount conservative legislators pay their interns?


The minimum wage law requires employers to discriminate against persons with low skills.

An interesting concept, and probably true in some situations. Unfortunately it doesn’t apply in many other scenarios like Hawaii’s plantation labor force. When plantation owners could find immigrants from a country with cheaper labor, they brought in a new work force. Minimum wage helps protect existing workers from the more ruthless aspects of capitalism.

[terracore]

"How does that compare with the amount conservative legislators pay their interns?"

Conservative legislators aren't trying to increase minimum wages that apply to small business owners but not to them.

"Minimum wage helps protect existing workers from the more ruthless aspects of capitalism."

Actually, it does the opposite. It eliminates all the mom and pop operators so that ruthless large corporations with well-funded lobbyists pushing their corporate agendas are the only ones left. Doesn't it make more sense to let the workers decide where they would like to work, and the wage they are willing to accept, instead of limiting their choices? The scenario you describe eventually whittles the number of employers down further and further until the labor pool is a proletariat who's only way out is socialism.

I do believe that some level of minimum wage is required but only up to the point that it prevents people from getting taken advantage of, or that being solely on public assistance is a better option. This level is far below a "living wage". A living wage is a form of prohibition. It prohibits an employer and potential employee from entering into an agreement without the blessing of the crown. And like all forms of prohibition, it comes with a black market. People working "under the table" and all that entails (human trafficking, etc).

ETA: last paragraph

[Rob Tucker]

terracore, You are wandering off the farm here. Bring it back to Hawaii in a reasonable way.

[SoCal_to_Hawaii]

"An interesting concept, and probably true in some situations. Unfortunately it doesn’t apply in many other scenarios like Hawaii’s plantation labor force. When plantation owners could find immigrants from a country with cheaper labor, they brought in a new work force. Minimum wage helps protect existing workers from the more ruthless aspects of capitalism."

They will hire illegal aliens and pay them off the books, less than minimum wage. So minimum wage does not necessarily protect legitimate workers.

[EightFingers]

Make Puna minimum wage $1000/hour.



Then we can all be rich!

[geochem]

or unemployed... the more likely alternative.

But terracore has missed a critical point in this discussion: if a so-called living wage (plus benefits) is more than the cost of automating (or exporting) a job, then that job disappears from the opportunity pool, likely permanently. As those entry-level positions are lost, there will be fewer and fewer opportunities for young people to learn the most basic of job skills: show up on time, show up every day, do what the boss tells you, work well with a team, etc. ...