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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
I came across this paragraph in a bit on reddit about Trump's racism:
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
Replace anti-Semite with anti-TMT and it is still relevant. There is a certain giddiness about telling everyone else to go shove it. Making sense is not the objective at least for some. NOT making sense and getting away with it is its own reward.
that quote and your sense of the motivation of the anti-tmt crowd discounts 1 simple FACT and is there fore rendered missionary hog wash ...relatives, friends, neighbors of the anti-tmt crowd have Died waiting on a list to be chosen for land and assistance from quasi government agencies, OHA, DHHL, to build a home. This is just 1 reason among many which fuel this event. The entire infrastructure of these 2 agencies and the agencies relationship with the State may be in for a big time dnc.
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Kaimana - I understand what you are saying but the protesters have said they will allow technical staff on the mountain on a limited basis but will not allow astronomers. That sends out a rather strong message don't you think?
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"How is the TMT mismanagement of the mountain. Please, someone explain it to me."
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TMT is not mismanaging the mountain. The claim is laid against the entities who have controlled the conservation land, ( which are Ceded Lands or Crown lands depending on how you view the rightful ownership.)
The mountain is in trust w/ the State of Hawaii....and part of it is leased to the University of Hawaii.....they in turn sub lease.
The BELOW quote is from OHA
"Mauna Kea is a deeply sacred place that is revered in Hawaiian traditions. ... Mauna Kea is also a critical part of the ceded lands trust that the State of Hawai#699;i must protect and preserve for future generations, pursuant to its kuleana as a trustee."
Things are a bit dicey for the Astronomers right now but I am praying that none of them get sent to the Catholic Holy Office
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With the many millions of dollars in observatory equipment at stake it seems that maybe they should consider flying essential staff up by helicopter, a flight in the morning and one late in the afternoon. Avoid the MK access road altogether for now.
Mauna Kea summit is 2000’ below Blue Hawaiian helicopters service ceiling for those Airbus Eco Stars. A Eurocopter (now Airbus) landed on top of Mt. Everest at 29,000 ft.
Scientists flew in helicopters over erupting lava every day here last summer. Let’s not lose ALL the telescopes.
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Frank:
I don't follow your logic. OHA and DHHL are indeed a large part of the problem. The TMT is not. The aquifer absolutely is not. A lot of people are cheerfully embracing nonsensical arguments.
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Tomk- yeah because they don't want to telescopes to break down.
And to those asking how TMT mismanaged the Mauna, I never said TMT did. It's the state and the university. But if you didn't know that then to me that shows you haven't really looked into the arguments presented.
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OHA and DHHL are indeed a large part of the problem.
That's why it's critically important to retaliate against State, UH, and astronomy.
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Seems like a lot of dodging of what the problem is and moving of goalposts once issues are resolved. Also, no one can explain mismanagement - to date.
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Here’s my view - based on a hypothetical scenario: Before the telescopes a rare native plant existed on the summit of Mauna Kea and only on the summit - similar to a silver sword - just for practicality. Since the telescopes and UH (or whatever current entity has regulated the land, OMKM et al) have been on Mauna Kea, extensive pressure from an island wide ungulate population boom have contributed greatly to the decimation of the Mauna Kea silver swords putting them on the endangered list today in 2019.
The above - lack of fencing? Etc and protection of the, albeit fictional, Mauna Kea silver swords would be something I would call mismanagement.
End hypothetical.
Since there are no plants or animals (shh weiku bugs which are fine) up there to mismanage then what exactly went wrong? And when?
The only claims i’ve even heard are stuff like: ‘spill of x gallons of orange coolant or trash leftover from construction being airlifted off by helicopters’
Neither of which seem like mismanagement, in the coolant issue it sounds like an accident and one time event, and trash left over from construction which was then removed seems ordinary per any construction project.
I just don’t get it and it makes me suspect the whole claims of mismanagement are entirely bogus.
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
Frank:
I don't follow your logic. OHA and DHHL are indeed a large part of the problem. The TMT is not. The aquifer absolutely is not. A lot of people are cheerfully embracing nonsensical arguments.
give MarkP a prize!...The TMT is not the problem
