trash on Mauna Kea

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by kalakoa

All I ask is that they get their own garden..

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Hahaha.. I am sorry koa but that is the funniest response.. I mean come on, the point is their garden was stolen from them in the first place. But hey, you know that, you're just having too good a time playing the stupid haole to admit it.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

the photo's at the KITV link look reasonable to me.

Protestors & their supporters have spent years concocting imaginary horror stories about the zero waste TMT. Then when confronted with the reality of trash piles created and left behind by themselves, do they zoom in to see the garbage surrounding abandoned tents? Nope, they pretend everything is all right here, move along, nothing to see, everything is pono because we say it is.

[TomK]

"All of the photo's at the KITV link look reasonable to me. Stuff neatly piled, camps still in use, It isn't as if that stuff is abandoned [...]"

https://kitv.images.worldnow.com/images/19089284_G.jpg?auto=webp&disable=upscale&height=480&fit=bounds&lastEditedDate=1578622388000

Yes, clearly reasonable and not abandoned.

[kalakoa]

the point is their garden was stolen from them in the first place

Walmart, Home Depot, Target, Safeway, all totally acceptable and built without protests, but the TMT is obviously desecration because it happens to cost 100x as much as those big-box stores.

I'm sure someone will point out that some land is sacred and other land is not -- but when "the" Hawaiians argue against that big new radar installation on Oahu, they claim that it's not possible to draw lines around "the sacred part" because all the land is sacred.

Stopping the TMT will not magically cause the land to be returned. It will probably disrupt the economy, but I see no plans for an alternate Hawaiian economy to replace it with jobs and commerce.

TL;DR I find the arguments less than compelling simply because they aren't cohesive, much like "the" Hawaiians, many factions who each want different things (including some who have no problem with the TMT being built).

Related: it's been said that ground-based telescopes are obsolete and we should be building telescopes in space -- so long as they are launched from somewhere else, because it's too much of a burden to have it here.

Just like that composting facility which we still don't have, such that all those newfangled "not styrofoam" clamshells end up in the landfill anyway. "Respect the aina" indeed.

[TomK]

Enjoyed your post, Kalakoa. Just one thing:

"Related: it's been said that ground-based telescopes are obsolete and we should be building telescopes in space."

Note that this hasn't been said by astronomers but by others who do not understand the field of observational astronomy. Space-based telescopes are great, but they can't do many things ground-based telescopes can do and are incredibly expensive.

[PaulW]

"the posts here are just folks looking for fault in every crack and crevice you can find"
One of the main claims of the protestors was that the telescope was going to pollute the mountain. Turns out they are doing it themselves. This is not an insignificant detail.

"stupid haole"
That's what your Hawaiian friends call you behind your back, Californian wannabe. Too bad you only seem to be picking up the worst parts of the local culture.

All of this confirms (to me) that this is all just part of a shakedown. They don't give a hoot about the mountain or the land.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by kalakoa

all totally acceptable and built without protests...

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Are you sure?

[kalakoa]

Are you sure?

I'll concede the point ... which has the side effect of raising several new points.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/articl...bz03a.html

December 1994: Wal-Mart announces plans to open an outlet on Hawaiian Home Lands in Hilo. The new store will anchor the Waiakea Center and is the second planned for the Big Island. Opening is set for mid-1996.

August 1995: Wal-Mart's Kona store opens in the new Crossroads Center.

January 1996: Three Hawaiian activists arrested when protesting the building of the Waiakea Center on Hawaiian Home Lands.

January 1996: Twelve more arrested as protesters continue to camp just outside of the 20-acre project. Circuit Judge Riki May Amano amends restraining order to say protesters cannot block the project anywhere.

December 1996: Wal-Mart publicly announces it will open the Hilo outlet for the 1995 Christmas season, but almost a year later the store is still not open. The chain hopes for a low-key opening in late December, with a grand opening to follow on Jan. 27.

Protests only in Hilo after stores open on Oahu and in Kona. Riki May Amano as the judge. Here we are 24 years later without solving any of the issues: are "the" Hawaiians not pushing hard enough, are there not enough of them, or is "the system" resisting these attempts at tampering with its precious commerce?

More interesting: all the protest action after this point is by unions and individuals, leveraging the system with nuisance complaints (traffic study, environmental review).

Building department ... unchanged. Be sure to apply for permits today, maybe you can hand them down to your children.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Here we are 24 years later without solving any of the issues:

While some issues are still unsolved, there have been unintended consequences for the descendants of those 1990’s protestors. Today, stores like Walmart & Home Depot offer low prices on metal poles, tarps, bottled water, and camping gear that the old timers could only dream of. So cheap, their kids on the mountain can discard those items after only a few months use without giving it a second thought.

[geochem]

don't neglect that lease payments made to DHHL - which, presumably, have helped provide resources for making lands available for beneficiaries...