kahea na hoku i ka poe koa i ka aina hou

[iquetzal]

I have directly contacted the governor and every representative and relevant academic in this state.
Nothing. I get more response from a bucket of worms.
They are all scared for their jobs because the Internet mob. Never seen such fear.
You know. The Internet. That was going to usher in a golden age, etc. etc.
And cancel your existence if you go off narrative. Or have record of contact with someone unvetted.
Hawaii must establish an Institute of Interstellar Navigation based upon Polynesian Wayfinding.
There is no other solution to this problem. I have spent years on this. It is NP-Hard computationally insolvable.
Hawaii owns this. I mean real Hawaiians. They totally own it on every level.
The only navigation methodology capable of interstellar travel is several thousand years old.
But political grifters have suckered Hawaiians into turning their backs on the future of their culture and walking into a graveyard.
The language at the Navigation Console of Starships will be Hawaiian. Starships are closer than you think.
We are living the end game of our species if we do not move on this.
It is now or never.
And morons block roads.
And bigger morons cheer them on.
And our so-called 'leaders' hide under rocks.
So ban me. I don't care. I got a long list I'm banned from.
We go to the stars and we go soon, or it is game over.

[TomK]

Hawaii must establish an Institute of Interstellar Navigation based upon Polynesian Wayfinding.
There is no other solution to this problem. I have spent years on this. It is NP-Hard computationally insolvable.
Hawaii owns this. I mean real Hawaiians. They totally own it on every level.
The only navigation methodology capable of interstellar travel is several thousand years old.

This is a genuine question. Proper motion is needed in order to understand where a star is at any given moment and is therefore needed for interstellar navigation. How did the Hawaiians measure proper motion thousands of years ago without precision optical instruments?

[Or1on]

That's quite a passionate post iquetzal.  I like it.  I'm all for the advancement of knowledge on this topic.  

Not so sure I buy the "endgame and now or never part though"  Haven't we always been on the edge of self destruction as a human race?  Probably closer on a larger scale since the atomic bomb was invented but that was almost 80 years ago.  We've been "messed up" (thousands of years) but the internet just opened our eyes on it like wasn't ever possible before.

@Tom   "How did the Hawaiians measure proper motion thousands of years ago without precision optical instruments?"

Good question.  Trial and error?  Higher level woo-woo spirituality than we're capable of understanding and accepting?  Help in the form of technology from extraterrestrial beings?

[iquetzal]

Hawaii must establish an Institute of Interstellar Navigation based upon Polynesian Wayfinding.
There is no other solution to this problem. I have spent years on this. It is NP-Hard computationally insolvable.
Hawaii owns this. I mean real Hawaiians. They totally own it on every level.
The only navigation methodology capable of interstellar travel is several thousand years old.

This is a genuine question. Proper motion is needed in order to understand where a star is at any given moment and is therefore needed for interstellar navigation. How did the Hawaiians measure proper motion thousands of years ago without precision optical instruments?

It is impossible in principle to know the physical position of an interstellar object. Proper motion is a relative observation with no absolute physical basis. Star's position in the sky indicates physical positions randomly sampled across centuries or millennia in the past. Since every star warps the path of light along its line of sight from earth, the myriad convolutions of  'space' that dictate perceived locations of stars in the sky is uniquely defined by earth's current position at any point in time. From light years away, a database of stellar positions in earths sky will project false stellar positions based upon the differential foam of spacetime viewed from the new location. Polynesian wayfinding is the only conceptual discipline capable of collating many divergent sources of imprecise information into a wayfinding methodology. There is no such thing as a coordinate in interstellar space. There is no such thing as a course between waypoints. Polynesian wayfinding does not depend upon coordinates and waypoints. It is a continuous analytical process of acquiring, collating and discarding information from diverse sources, from departure to arrival. People seem to think this is an easy problem. It isn't. Is is profoundly difficult. We risk sending starships to interstellar destinations that will be nothing but lightyears of empty space when they arrive.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

contacted the governor and every representative and relevant academic in this state.

Have you reached out to the voyaging society?  Or their navigators?


measure proper motion thousands of years ago without precision optical instruments?

Birds can navigate great distances.  Although it may involve earth’s magnetic fields (not applicable in interstellar space) there may be other forces at work as well.  Forces that a trained, focused, sensitive person might detect.

[Obie]

"Students of primitive navigation believe that the migration of birds had meaning for the Polynesians, and that they learned much from watching the flocks that gathered each year in the spring and fall, launched out over the ocean, and returned later out of the emptiness into which they had vanished. Harold Gatty believes the Hawaiians may have found their islands by following the spring migration of the golden plover from Tahiti to the Hawaiian chain, as the birds returned to the North American mainland."

[TomK]

It is impossible in principle to know the physical position of an interstellar object. Proper motion is a relative observation with no absolute physical basis. Star's position in the sky indicates physical positions randomly sampled across centuries or millennia in the past. Since every star warps the path of light along its line of sight from earth, the myriad convolutions of  'space' that dictate perceived locations of stars in the sky is uniquely defined by earth's current position at any point in time. From light years away, a database of stellar positions in earths sky will project false stellar positions based upon the differential foam of spacetime viewed from the new location. Polynesian wayfinding is the only conceptual discipline capable of collating many divergent sources of imprecise information into a wayfinding methodology. There is no such thing as a coordinate in interstellar space. There is no such thing as a course between waypoints. Polynesian wayfinding does not depend upon coordinates and waypoints. It is a continuous analytical process of acquiring, collating and discarding information from diverse sources, from departure to arrival. People seem to think this is an easy problem. It isn't. Is is profoundly difficult. We risk sending starships to interstellar destinations that will be nothing but lightyears of empty space when they arrive.

The problem of being able to measure proper motion still exists no matter how you explain it away. Firstly, there is a coordinate system that can be used, its center is your position and the coordinates of any star can then be calculated by using its RA and dec, distance,  and proper motion. This is why we have a decent map of the Milky Way Galaxy. If one of those bits of information is missing then you can't produce a usable map for navigation. Since it was impossible to measure precise and accurate stellar positions thousands of years ago nor their proper motions, the idea of ancient Polynesian wayfinding for interstellar navigation is absurd. You state that very point in your last sentence:


"We risk sending starships to interstellar destinations that will be nothing but lightyears of empty space when they arrive."

[iquetzal]

Any decent map of the milky way galaxy is accurate only from earth's unique position within it. As your distance from earth increases by light years, the galactic map based upon the paths light took to reach earth becomes progressively and randomly more imprecise. This is not due to trivial projection effects of your new position. Every star in the galaxy distorts the path of light of everything along its line of sight. This is how Einstein was proved correct. It also results in the foam of spactime defined by the paths light takes through the galaxy to reach your new position being fundamentally different in a way that cannot be corrected computationally. For sure a good map of the galaxy will still bear a strong resemblance to what is seen from any place within it, but its accuracy will no longer be sufficient for navigation purposes. At interstellar distances, errors of mere seconds of arc will result in a spacecraft arriving at vast, empty voids if navigation is based course vectors derived from point locations in a database. I do not deny the utility of a galactic database, I'm saying that an accurate galactic database based upon stellar positions in earth's sky does not solve the navigation problem because it will not be accurate anywhere else but earth. In fact, a galactic database based upon absolute galactic coordinates is computationally impossible in principle. But that is just me and my opinion and I have been called crazy. Anyway, an interstellar navigation methodology sufficient to rendezvous with an extrasolar planet is a profoundly deep problem that no one is anywhere near solving. In my opinion, Polynesian Wayfinding can evolve into such a methodology by merging with contemporary astronomy. We need to take our cultural blinders off when seeking out solutions to insolvable problems. I'll shut up now. This is why I don't get invited to parties.

[kander]

No, dont shut up.. Please continue.

[oink]

With the right amount of acid it makes perfect sense.