Old Lahaina Town Utterly Destroyed - Recovery & Relief Efforts

[dobanion]

My friend who runs search and rescue stuff in Oregon was on standby to take their dogs for a few days there. I guess a search dog is a bit different training than a cadaver dog. Go figure.

[randomq]

Due to the winds fanning the flames and the extent and speed of the fires there is speculation that many bodies may have been cremated, bones and all turned to ash. Nothing left to find.

With all the pollution and unfound remains and belongings under rubble, I wonder how they will proceed. Will families get time to dig through the rubble? Will the county/state hire bulldozer and hazmat crews to clean up the whole town and scrape off all the topsoil? Or will it be left to individual homeowners and their insurance? That could take literally forever. Seems like at some point the county will have to step in and start a cleanup process, regardless of all the calls to "slow down".

[HiloJulie]

Thanks for posting that article Rob. 

What special special animals dogs are and can be trained to do.

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@randomq

I don’t think that the County,State or even the Federal Government will allow people to dig through the rubble after the search for victims is completed due to the potential exposure to various hazardous materials such as asbestos, lead and even arsenic. 

I would imagine that there would have to be a significant hazardous material cleanup and decontamination process done first.

[MarkP]

Much more is being made of hazardous wastes here in Lahaina than was the case in Paradise. I can se a couple of reasons why. I am curious whether anybody else sees it this way but don't want to influence any answers with my own guesses till others give their opinion.

[ironyak]

Similar concerns were raised for the Camp Fire in Paradise, which required a lot of remediation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/29/us/ca...icals.html (https://archive.is/Y1YNq)

What differences do you see in the current concerns over hazardous materials in Lahaina?

[MarkP]

The concerns about toxic cleanup in Paradise somehow flew beneath my radar, it just seemed like I was hearing more about it in Lahaina. As far as actual differences go, Lahaina is older. There is likely a longer history of use of lead and asbestos. There was more intensive agriculture using arsenic right up to the edge of town. Also, times change and legacy toxins could play a larger part in the narrative today.

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Prevailing winds being what they are and the nature of sugar production being what it was plus the years of said lands laying fallow and un-irrigated means a lot of arsenic tainted dust blowing into town.

[randomq]

Probably plenty of older construction with copper chromate arsenic treated wood. I'm sure all the burned plastics and interior finishes and such aren't exactly healthy either.

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Lead or lithium from car batteries and electronics...

[MarkP]

I started reading about water contamination after wildfires. The common plastic pipe and fittings all give off nasty VOCs when heated high enough (about 200 degrees C which is close to 400 degrees F). I woulda thought that at those temperatures the pipes would just burst, the water would flow out, and the pipe would be replaced before use. Fair enough but what seems to be happening in these widespread fires is that water pressure is lost and smoke and fumes are sucked into the distribution systems. The water mains seem not to be contaminated as much but the smaller distribution lines do get contaminated. When that happens even piping materials that didn't get overheated can absorb the contaminants and leach them out later. I suppose even the mains would get contaminated if the water got sucked back far enough. The article I read said that it was plastic pipe and fittings that would absorb the secondary contamination. Maybe the mains are more likely to be metal, maybe they have a smaller surface area to volume ratio, or maybe the contaminated water rarely reaches them.

It was an eye opener to read of contaminated water from one building getting drawn into the system and causing problems for the rest of the system although perhaps it should not be so unexpected. Failures in backflow prevention and subsequent contamination of systems from other more traditional sources of contamination have long been the bane of public health. Also the article said that these chemicals (some from overheated plastic pipes and some from smoke) may have been contaminating water after fires for decades. We just didn't test for them until recently.

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I started reading about water contamination after wildfires. The common plastic pipe fittings all give off nasty VOCs when heated high enough (about 200 degrees C which is close to 400 degrees F). I woulda though that at those temperatures the pipes would just burst, the water would flow out, and the pipe would be replaced before use. Fair enough but what seems to be happening in these widespread fires is that water pressure is lost and smoke and fumes are sucked into the distribution systems. The water mains seem not to be contaminated as much but the smaller distribution lines do get contaminated. When that happens even piping materials that didn't get overheated can absorb the contaminants and leach them out later. I suppose even the mains would get contaminated if the water got sucked back far enough. The article I read said that it was plastic pipe and fittings that would absorb the secondary contamination. Maybe the mains are more likely to be metal, maybe they have a smaller surface area to volume ratio, or maybe the contaminated water rarely reaches them.

It was an eye opener to read of contaminated water from one building getting drawn into the system and causing problems for the rest of the system although perhaps it should not be so unexpected. Failures in backflow prevention and subsequent contamination of systems from other more traditional sources of contamination have long been the bane of public health. Also the article said that these chemicals (some from overheated plastic pipes and some from smoke) may have been contaminating water after fires for decades. We just didn't test for them until recently.

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Weird double post as I tried to edit...

The subdivision near Naalehu and probably others have water piping running exposed for hundreds of feet along the ground beside the roads. I shudder to think of all the problems they would have from even a modest brush fire.

[HiloJulie]

Not a rescue dog but a rescued dog! Never hold out hope!

Welcome home Roman Ryan!

[ironyak]

The concerns about toxic cleanup in Paradise somehow flew beneath my radar, it just seemed like I was hearing more about it in Lahaina.  As far as actual differences go, Lahaina is older.  There is likely a longer history of use of lead and asbestos.  There was more intensive agriculture using arsenic right up to the edge of town.  Also, times change and legacy toxins could play a larger part in the narrative today.

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Prevailing winds being what they are and the nature of sugar production being what it was plus the years of said lands laying fallow and un-irrigated means a lot of arsenic tainted dust blowing into town.

it may be because of the monitoring and sampling work done in Paradise the hazards are much better known now and so are being raised earlier. All the issues you pointed out are areas of concern around Lahaina - hopefully enough steps can be taken to address them although there is probably a similar set of challenges with mistrust, delays, and enormous costs.