Hawaii Decarbonization Settlement 2045

[kalianna]

Asking again. Answering your questions is not required.

[TomK]

Of course it isn't, but asking again for an answer is not bickering. Further, not answering a question about a claim you make weakens the claim; it indicates you can't or are unwilling to support it. What I tried to do was debate, but the participant seemed reluctant, and it made me wonder why. This is not bickering; it's logical debate.

[kalianna]

If you wish to engage in logical debate, go to a debate site. If you ask a question and it goes unanswered, let it go. Move on. Lifeʻs too short to get your knickers in a twist over people posting their opinions in an anonymous little social media site. Iʻm done BiCKERING here WITH YOU.

[TomK]

If you wish to engage in logical debate, go to a debate site.  If you ask a question and it goes unanswered, let it go.  Move on.  Lifeʻs too short to get your knickers in a twist over people posting their opinions in an anonymous little social media site.  Iʻm done here.

I'm asking about a specific claim made in this thread. What sense would it make to ask the question elsewhere? On the one hand, you've just told me that MyManao is not logical, nor are you, and I agree, but at least I tried to get logical answers. On the other hand, you seem upset that asking questions and having a different viewpoint about things is an awful thing, and someone who does so should move on.

So fine, you move on (I bet you won't) and find a site where everyone agrees and doesn't debate or argue about various issues.

[Durian Fiend]

"Pot growers use carbon dioxide generators in their grow rooms to increase yield.  It's a thing."

Well, as they say, you learn something new every day!

The reason I asked was that in as much as I've never grown marijuana, I have over the years met and seen several huge commercial pot growers/grow operations in both California and Colorado - and they were like CO2 was the anti-christ to them. 

I've heard of its use in commercial greenhouses for plants, flowers, fruits and vegetables, but the guys whom I met - and these were massive growing operations - 100,000 square foot plus industrial buildings converted into grow rooms - and they were really strict on all things CO2. No cars allowed within several hundred feet of the building - all equipment, such as forklifts etc., were all battery operated - with ultra no smoking/vaping (of anything) allowed. There were two grow sites I got to see that even limited the number of humans that could be in the grow house at any one time as well as for no more than 60 minutes - with 60 minutes of no one allowed after. They even had special insulated 3- or 4-inch diameter iron piping run on the outside of the buildings that they could hook up the exhaust stacks of these 200-amp standby generators that took the exhaust far away from any possible entrance to the buildings. They had also spent tens of thousands of dollars on air conditioning/filtration systems as well.

Now, it might be a different story of it increased POTENCY but from what I gathered their opinion was the yield increase was not worth the cost.

Car, generator and forklift exhaust generate a lot of undesirable emissions besides CO2.  In a large commercial marijuana growing operation I would be surprised if supplemental CO2 was not being used. With the help of state government in Colorado, some breweries and grow ops have formed a partnership over its generation and use. https://www.cpr.org/2020/03/25/brewing-b...om-it-too/

[ironyak]

Punatang - What if we tried something different?  The first US plant for these [Air Cars] is supposed to be in Hawaii.

Neat idea, but known,
Cashing in prevents progress,
Shark cut bait and swam.

TomK - What did this mythical goddess say?

The thread's topic is
Decarbonization, yes?
Try focus, if can.

HiloJulie - Damn that Henry Ford! Why did he waste all that time and just not invent the Tesla in 1908?

At any event, now that you point out that the costs of carbon capture are just too expensive, I am no longer feeling a bit guilty of jetting off to Vegas and back with my husband this past weekend as invited guests to see the very last Beatles Love Show on Sunday!

And it was a balmy 120 degrees!

Jul thinks hundred years
we have to solve the problem.
Daft, deluded lies.

Forced to face the facts,
instead revels in pain caused,
ghoul goes full mask off.

Millions of species,
Billions of lives. Worth a thought?
Nah, fuck them, got mine.

[randomq]

It's the end of "The Graduate", and we're all just riding along in the back of the bus with blank stares, not knowing what comes next. But it's ok:

No need to panic,
there's great future in plastics:
reproduction's fall.

[HiloJulie]

ironyak wise man
cannot see trees thru forest
no Pele she a god

no answer but no
no EV, no LNG, no solar
blame lady in plane

fossil power big
burn the oil & the coal choke
blame lady in plane

idea might work
carbon capture way too much
blame lady in plane

ironyak wise man
speaks with volume loud
blame lady in plane

10 million a day
in the friendly sky they play
blame lady in plane

asking what be done
no idea what to do
blame lady in plane

live like me I say
only one to save the day
blame lady in plane

argument is weak
no anything status quo
blame lady in plane

when fail I do well
so I swear I know too well
blame lady in plane

here I sit to think
more to say my shit don't stink
blame lady in plane

[MyManao]

it seems more like you are saying that Pele is cool with us grabbing some power from geothermal but folks still whine about it.

Regardless, thanks for sharing the haiku.

Thank you. And yes, it's my summation of this thread.. as I said earlier, regardless all the other stuff Pele put paid to the matter in 2018. Before that it was (kinda maybe) easy to say it was a mistake to let geothermal take hold in what otherwise became a bedroom community.. but that, even without 2018, was a hard sell when the state designated the area a geothermal sub-zone decades ago.. Seriously, the writing’s been on the wall for a long time.

https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/se...be/content

And, now, add 2018 and the story is over. What might have been opposing ideas equally balanced so as to never let either become dominate shifted in favor of geothermal, And still, there's always going to be those that would rather spend their days resisting something. 

As to the injection wells and their possible consequences.. I have a hard time imagining that returning the fluids that come up in the geothermal process to where they came from could make all that much of a difference. In fact it's the quintessential renewable resource, isn't it? We extract some steam, use it to turn a turbine and return it to where we got it so as to be able to use it again.. and again..

Keep in mind the area in the rock from which the steam comes is a part of a much larger system where the ground water, that lens you mention, is pushed aside by the presence of heat, from magma. The magma is too hot and because water can’t exist in an environment that hot the ground around it is dry. So there is a super hot dry zone, a transition zone that is hot but not hot enough to repel water entirely, and further from the magma there is the relatively cold water lens. 

The fresh water lens that permeates the island is explained here..

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2016/11...Hawaii.pdf

I am sure most have felt both while swimming in the ocean over the years. Pohoiki had great warm fresh water currents running through the surf, and the beaches along the Keaukaha side have cold currents. Both are obvious when you come in contact with them. Geothermal is focused on the transition zone. Where there’s enough heart to make steam, but not so much as to drive away the water the steam is made from. It naturally exists and without man doing anything it is filled with all sorts of nasty chemicals from the magma's heat and gases and water interaction.. and without something that needs to be monitored and all that it just is, it’s there and Ormat’s discharge is but a grain of sand in the overall scheme of things.. literally a pin prick.

So, geothermal, we use it, we return it to where we got it, and all is done in a closed system that leaves nothing on the surface. And when you look around at how much land is used and how toxic it is or isn’t we get a whole lot for very little. Like so little that with the land use requirements and the supply chain nonsense that comes with solar and wind I think geothermal is a far better, safer, less toxic, and more stable choice.. by far.

And.. since I am going on.. my energy source of choice would be the ocean currents at the bottom of the ʻAlenuihāhā Channel. Just place the turbines down there and we’d never run out of energy.. nor need have its production effect us, at all. It’d be clean, no extraction and reinjection, no weird minerals mined in some god forsaken place that need to be recycled, no trash.. just turbines turning seven miles below the ocean’s surface and some wires. Maybe someone should write a novel.. a sci-fi thriller..

[randomq]

The novel will be called "Desecration", as the geothermal displaced the ruins of a sacred ancient Puna rest stop once used by Kamehameha's uncle, and the underwater turbines are threatening the delicate ecosystem seven miles under the sea. Is there *nowhere* the haole won't tread?!!