UKIRT To End Maunakea Operations September 15

[randomq]

A appreciate your perspective. I also think the entire history of the islands, from Marquesan Hawaiians to Tahitian invaders to Kamehameha slaughtering to conquer the islands to the Māhele giving 2/3++ of the lands to royalty is full of injustice, and the coup was just one more in a long line. Every culture everywhere has histories like this; we're living through our own particularly disgraceful period right now.

To me, the only thing that matters is democracy, and the consent of the people that live here *today*. Either accept the contested case hearing, or push for a ballot measure to make new state law.

[HiloJulie]

To me, the only thing that matters is democracy, and the consent of the people that live here *today*. Either accept the contested case hearing, or push for a ballot measure to make new state law.

Very profound statement RandomQ. But, as we see here *today*, some would rather thumb their nose at democracy and the rule of law as long as they get only what they want. The rest be damned.

[Durian Fiend]

It’s certainly a loss for science, and a loss for Big Island.

I thought they offered to decommission several telescopes in exchange for the TMT.

If I remember right they did, three. The first two are gone, and the third is UKIRT.

5, according to this.  https://hilo.hawaii.edu/maunakea/steward...missioning

So, no, UKIRT is not the best thing since mom and apple pie. It's a very old scope that has done wonders.. and still it has been slated to be decommissioned for almost a decade already. Which is to say of all the functioning observatories it's the most expendable. Not by my words, not by the other guy's words, but by the folks that really know, the folks that run the place.

Yes, most expendable for the reasons Tom gave.

And you know, it could be said, the sooner it goes the better the chances for the TMT to be built. UKIRT's hanging on is probably making it harder for TMT to gain the traction it needs with the local community to succeed.

IMO irrelevant to the miniscule chance of TMT being built. 

[MyManao]

If I remember right they did, three. The first two are gone, and the third is UKIRT.

5, according to this.  https://hilo.hawaii.edu/maunakea/steward...missioning

Do keep in mind, I further, in the same post you quoted, clarified, and reproduced from official documents..

Pursuant to the CDUP for the TMT project, the BLNR imposed special conditions regarding the decommissioning of telescopes on Maunakea, including the following:

Special Condition 10. The University will decommission three telescopes permanently, as soon as reasonably possible, and no new observatories will be constructed on those sites. This commitment will be legally binding on the University and shall be included in any lease renewal or extension proposed by the University for Mauna Kea.

Special Condition 11. Notwithstanding any lease renewal or extension, consistent with the Decommissioning Plan, at least two additional facilities will be permanently decommissioned by December 31, 2033, including the Very Long Baseline Array antenna and at least one additional observatory.

And the three I initially mentioned were supposed to be decommissioned, as stated in 2017, as soon as reasonably possible, but the UKIRT failed to live up to that commitment and violated all our trust until now. And, as I pointed out, in doing so they gave the Hawaiian community all the reason they need to not trust the astronomical community. Hopefully the guys over at TMT can straighten that out, make it right. 

And, btw, you might appreciate the CB article from last March here titled

The Thirty Meter Telescope Is Still Alive — For Now

In which is begins..

Congress has bought time for the Thirty Meter Telescope to be built on Mauna Kea, the site of a wave of protests in 2019 that halted construction of the telescope planned for the mountain’s summit. 

The TMT project has a funding shortfall of about $1 billion and appeared dead last year after the National Science Foundation recommended funding go to another large telescope project – the Giant Magellan Telescope in Chile — amid federal budget cuts.

A recent appropriations bill passed by Congress, however, includes language that keeps the TMT project alive for now, but doesn’t allocate additional federal funding to either telescope. Federal lawmakers directed the science foundation to advance both the TMT and the Magellan observatory to final design review, one of the last steps before construction begins on a telescope. 

Note that the initial shift by the NSF towards Magellan has been voided and both scopes are still being considered equally.

As to the other two telescopes in the count of five, as quoted above, again from an official source, the remaining two were never intended to be decommissioned until the end of the current lease in 2033.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

And the three I initially mentioned were supposed to be decommissioned, as stated in 2017, as soon as reasonably possible, but the UKIRT failed to live up to that commitment and violated all our trust until now. And, as I pointed out, in doing so they gave the Hawaiian community all the reason they need to not trust the astronomical community.

TMT construction and protests began in 2015, two years before you believed the Hawaiian community were acting from a lack of trust, due to broken promises two years in the future.

[MyManao]

due to broken promises - over lifetimes.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

due to broken promises - over lifetimes.

Wow.  The reincarnation of broken promises.  No daily limit. No expiration date.

[kalakoa]

as soon as reasonably possible

Funny, considering how permitting goes around here.

[Durian Fiend]

due to broken promises - over lifetimes.

And yet you somehow believe there's hope for TMT?   Nah, not if that attitude prevails.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Yesterday was the last night of regular UKIRT operations. Today they begin to switch everything off. After 47 years of operations.

End of an era.