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Threat to Pahoa?!
#41
I can't believe any and all attempts made to protect life and property could be misconstrued as botched up liabilty issues. To do nothing will surely mean loss and perhaps for many rather than few.

Diverting lava has been successful in many other parts of the world Italy and Iceland for two and history shows several attempts to redirect flows during the 1960 eruption although attempts failed they made a great effort and without mention of liabilities. The valiant but futile efforts of 1960 doesn't mean that continued efforts couldn't or wouldn't prove successful.

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/history/1....html#warm

Several other methods of diverting lava flows have been
tried:
(a) Bombing
Low-viscosity basaltic lava flows have been bombarded from aircraft
in attempts to open new channels or to break up and clog flows which were
threatening valuable property. For instance, during the 1942 eruption of
Mauna Loa in Hawaii, a lava flow was breached high on the slopes of the
volcano and the lava front 20 km away ceased its advance soon after;
however, the intensity of the eruption had decreased in the meantime, so
that it could not be proved that it was the bombing that stopped the
advance of the lava.
Bombing from aircraft can only be attempted in good weather and
with good visibility; during eruptions, however, visibility is often very
poor, and violent air turbulence can also make the operation dangerous.
Air-to-ground guided missiles might possibly give better results but they
have not yet been used for this purpose.
Even under the best conditions, bombing from the air is generally not
accurate enough, and there is always the risk that a misdirected bomb may
increase the flow in the wrong direction. It is doubtful whether bombing
could have any significant effect on thick flows. An alternative method, the
explosive breaching of lava flows, using charges installed by hand into
shallow boreholes, was experimental on Etna in May 1983.
(b) Diversion barriers
There has been much discussion of the feasibility of constructing bar-
35
riers to divert lava flows. In 1881,W. R. Lawrence proposed to build a barrier
to slow down a flow from Mauna Loa which was threatening the city of
Hilo, but the eruption ceased before the work was completed.

Aloha HADave & Mz P

Hawaiian Acres

The best things in life are free.... or have no interest or payments for one full year.



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#42
The situation in Iceland has little resemblance to HI. There they had to make a decision to either save the town or save the harbor, but not both. They also had the benefit of near freezing water. The water temperature was such that it not only crusted the lava, but also cracked the surface crust enabling cold water to seep down into the molten lava, cooling it. Just pouring water on a lava flow does nothing but create dams that will breech, or tubes aimed towards the very area your trying to protect. But the purpose wasn’t to stop the flow, but to channel it as best they could away from the harbor, even if it meant destroying major facilities and many homes, and creating a bad situation someplace else.

The situation in Italy also doesn’t apply as the flow was down a contained mountain pass, not over a sloping hillside. However, if you read past the success of stopping the flow, you'll read that they did save the town below, but created a situation where the next major eruption will destroy the town. In essence they created a dam on a dam on dam to such a height that nothing they can ever conceivable do next time will halt the lava. According to one report, things will actually be worst because the time they had the first go around will be cut to a fraction since they created a near vertical drop. There’s even some talk that they need to undo what they did because it created a devastating scenario that has now prevented them from ever utilizing any other technique to halt the lava flow.

In talking to a couple of county offices, I get the distinct impression that anything in Lava Zone 1 is fair game for the lava and they have no intention, nor should anyone expect them to intervene. Anything in Lava Zone 2 is fair game unless it has a critical need to the people of HI. So residence will be sacrificed but essential or critical structures (Hospitals, major thoroughfares, etc) will be reviewed for intervention. Even the insurance agent I spoke to said anyone since the mid 1980's knew where they stood as far as the risk of living in an active lava area and shouldn't expect anyone to come rescue their property because they ignored the risk. I was getting the distinct impression that many seemed to feel they owe us no sympathy for our decision to live in the path of molten lava.




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#43
Looking at the eruption map one can see that lava flowed from 1986- July 2007 over a 6 mile wide path(Kalapana) all the way to the sea. We could be experiencing the beginning of a similar event here in Pahoa.
What happens to all the people living East of the flow that would be cut off from Hwy 130 access to Hilo? Let's say the flow goes thru Makuu farmers market area all the way to the sea. What about the people living in Hawaiian Beaches/Nanawale/Leilani/Kalapana
would they have to evacuate and wait years to return or until the lava stops?


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#44
Yes, no rescue will come. And to be fair, I do not believe it is technically feasible to redirect millions of gallons of lava with any accuracy. If this were Los Angeles, perhaps. But this is a small island (even though bigger than certain others) and getting a plumber for your copper pipes is a challenge, much less getting someone to replumb your volcano.

There are risks. We all decided the rewards were greater than the risks, and we shall see if that is true.

The flow has been active but a teeny, teeny amount of time geologically speaking. Pele operates on a completely different time frame. This one seems very slow, but inexorable. HVO says the field is broader but not longer.

The take away point for me is that there is a lotta lava looking for somewhere to be. Puna is a big district. There's room for the lava, for you and for me. We shall see.

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#45
one would assume there will be a bypass road further makai.. railroad ave? before the lava actually gets to the point of cutting off 130. and then further towards the coast as the lava advances. but, I do not think many people would like to live in a lot of that area once the lava gets to the ocean, the air quality downwind of the point at which lava enters the ocean is way bad. the worst that the volcano has to give in terms of gas emissions methinks. considering the wind patterns in the area I believe a lot of people would be effected to the point of leaving, even if they were the type to hike across the flow and have a nice quiet life because the highway got cut off. acid rain aint any fun at all. and its long term effects.. well I bet when that happens they flat out wont let people endanger themselves.
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#46
Here we go with the lava diversion again. I promise you it won't happen. Hawaii volcanoes are of the "shield" type, characterized by cracks "rifts" on the mountain's flanks. It would be like trying to plug a hole in a sponge, with absolutely no idea of where it's going next. I see it as a great oportunity to demonstrate man's foolish idea that we can control nature. I will admit that we can certainly "change" our environment, but mostly without knowing we're doing it (global warming). OK, so we've got a big liability issue. What we've also got that no one has mentioned is a big cultural issue. There are many Hawaiians who feel that bombing or buldozing Pele would not only be disrespectful, but dangerous. Don't take this lightly. We all live on an active Volcano and its up to us to adapt, not Kilauea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if any of you have had a real estate contract that didn't disclose the lava zone, I believe you may have grounds for a lawsuit.

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#47
If the current flow does eventually threaten to cut Hwy 130, it makes more sense to put the emergency road somewhere they won't have to rebuild it in another month or so. That would make Government Beach an option that would buy more time, but eventually be cut if the ocean was reached. It would be a hell of a detour, but rebuilding the old Kalapana-Chain of Craters connection sort of makes sense, although it, too, would probably be covered eventually. No easy answers, are there?

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#48
Hmm... If Murphy's Law plays out here, then rebuilding the Chain of Craters Road may actually divert the lava flow back down that way. =) Let's do that.
Time is an illusion, but a handy one. Without it, we would not be able to hear sounds, and without that ability, we would have no music.
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#49
Five hundred years ago most Ahupua'a were self sufficient. Food-energy-commerce-culture. This was without the advantages of modern technology; Wind, Solar, and Geothermal Power. Satelite dishes and computers. We have all this now, plus a year round growing season (don't forget the herb). If we're striving for a more "village" type economy and life style, perhaps isolation from Hilo would be a "good" thing. Think of lower Puna as it's own island within an Island. Remember that a Volvo makes an indestructable chicken coup. Smile

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#50
Hello, I am new to this forum. I was born and raised in California, but spent many summers on Oahu with relatives. My Great-Grand Father, Grand Father, were born on Kauai and migrated to Honolulu. I have always wanted to move to Hawaii, but due to circumstances and vested retirement, I will have to wait until retirement in about 10 years. To insure that my dream of moving will happen, I have a lot in HPP in escrow.

Anyway, the Honolulu Star Bulletin has an article today with a revised map of the potential flow of lava. Hopefully it will stop before anyone loses their home.

)http://starbulletin.com/2007/09/10/news/story01.html)

Aloha to my new friends in this forum,

Cal
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