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Well I have to say that, as usual, april makes a pretty good point.
Disclaimer
Warning this post is not going to be very well received and the writer of this post does hope that the helo-nuisance problem is resolved for the good of all concerned.
But honestly, when you move to or live in a State thats economics is predominently driven by tourism I think you're going to be fighting the 800LB gorilla, in that of the helicopter tours.
As the areas become more populated the situation/problem will increase. I think your best avenue will be a safety concern. By that, if you can convince someone somewhere, in authority, that these low fly overs are un-safe, then you may have a shot.
Sorry that's just my un-informed opinion.
Blessings,
dave
"Sometimes your the bug and sometimes your the windshield"
Blessings,
dave
"It doesn't mean that much to me.. to mean that much to you." Neil Young
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Cat,
Integrity check? What does that mean?
Yep, I took a flight.
I am not suggesting that the flights be banned, just work on reducing the nuisance factor.
Dan
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Sorry the analogy was for April.
Daniel the integrity check is for everybody. We all have to be careful of the "well I did it, but now it bothers me so no one else can."
And as for safety issues, for both those below and those above - safety is and should be #1.
Catherine Dumond
Blue Water Project Management
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http://bluewaterpm.125mb.com/index.html
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Darl,
My wife and I have been working outside a lot lately on our orchard and building our house in Hawaiian Acres and we seem to be right under Blue Hawaiian's flight path. We're tollerent people but these flights not only ruin the peace and quiet of our neighborhood, but they go on ALL DAY LONG with no change in the flight corridor. Is Sunshine and Safari Helicopters taking other routes because we seem to only see Blue Hawaiian helicopters right over our property? The fact that you're video taping these flights, which would include us, is kind of annoying too. There's also the increased danger your imposing on us if there were a crash since your flying right over our heads. It looks like you have at least 6 helicopters at Hilo I saw yesterday on the ground not including what you had in the air at the time. If some compromise can't be resolved maybe the county should limit the number of flights and hours of operation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk story with the community.
Edited by - Tahunatics on 11/13/2007 10:52:56
Steve & Regina
Hawaiian Acres / North Lake Tahoe
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Punapetah said: quote:
...Or just do what they did before, walk.
I know flying in a noisy machine over something that should be experienced up close and personal, can't nearly be the same.
wanna compare pictures?
Actually, yes, I will compare pictures. I've walked to the lava flows on the bottom end, and I've got the pix. I've also got pix from the air. Do you? I wanted to, but didn't walk to the Pu'u O'o vent, because I was put off by the description in the "Hawaii the Big Island Revealed" book, which is very accurate about everything else, in my opinion. They described the trail to Pu'u O'o as (I'm paraphrasing) 4 miles each way of unmarked, unmaintained trail through a soggy rainforest, with armed guerilla gardeners in the neighborhood. People have gotten lost and injured on that trail, which, I understand, starts on private property. Wonder what the property owners think about random tourists starting their foot adventure to Pu'u O'o starting on their vacant lot? Any trash left behind, ya think?
If you restrict the volcano access to those who are able to walk, then you've cut out, in April's words, "the old, the sick, the young, the sleeping, the just plain cranky". Pregnant? Sorry, you've got to walk. Paraplegic, you, too. Mom and pop with toddlers, get your backpacks out. Grandma and Gramps, you ready to go?
Besides, back to the photo point, the photos that you take from a helicopter are panoramic, taking the entire crater and environment in. You can see the cinder cones as part of the shield volcanoes that they truly are. When you're on the ground, you get pictures which are not better or worse, they're just different than the ones you can take from the air. Smaller in scope.
Also, there's an experience involved that doesn't involve cameras. There are people, millions of people, who go to professional sporting events like NFL, NBA, and baseball games, etc. They go there for the experience. Most people, even those who go to pro ball games, will tell you that the multiple camera views, the replay, and the comfort of your own couch and refrigerator make it a totally different experience than attending a game in person. Some people want to experience the roar of the crowd, the warmth of the sun, and $8 beers.
For me, I want to be able to experience Kilauea live, first-hand, from 1,000 feet above. I did it once, and I may go again. And again. I want the opportunity to be available for my son should he ever want to go.
Here's an integrity check: If you are one of the people arguing against all overflights (not you, DanielP), and have never taken a helicopter tour to the volcano, then you're arguing from, at best, a position of second-hand information (National Geographic pix), or at worst, no information at all.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
How do I know?
Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 12:02:01
Aloha! ;-)
They say ignorance is bliss. Well sitting in a helicopter is not the same as standing under one.
Problem is you aren't gonna satify everyone.
I'll take the beach view over a sky box any day.
When you are alone on the beach in the middle of the night, just you and Pele and you feel the connection between all things, you realize what is important in life and what isn't.
As more and more people move in they bring with them more and more less important stuff.
The tours are after all for those who have the time and extra money to blow for an amusment ride. I think that's fine if it's over the Grand Canyon or Dinosaur National Monument. The tides out and the other have been dead for millions of years.
But to fly anywhere near where people have gone through MORE expense to move to a "remote" island to get away from such nerve shattering obnoxious noise as a chopper right over head.
And all the complaining in the world doesn't seem to have any effect. The war had some effect. Don't know how many of you remember how it used to be. My welcome to the block in 99 was a chopper repelling in the lot behind the house I was moving into. It was like? Combat! Take cover!
Still.............
for now, there's no place I'd rather be. aloha
more information on FAA & National Parks
www.atmp.faa.gov
I'm sorry, but I think the argument about how incredible it is to see Kilauea from the air is incredibly me-centric and selfish.
Simply put, you had an incredible hour on one day. You and a whole lot of other people ... which adds up to your short-lived pleasure results in a lot of people having no quality of LIFE. A quick trip or a life. Which has more value?
Your EXPERIENCE & PHOTOS should be considered the highest priority, when it impacts families, seniors, marriages, health, farming, artistic endeavors, property values, and community state of mind?
I take photos and am pretty passionate about it. However, if someone tells me that my photo op is at the cost of their entire way of life -- I can and would refrain. There are many wonderful photos of Kilauea taken by the Park Service who MUST fly over to keep tabs on the activity.
In the end, insisting that YOUR photos are so important in the scheme of things that it doesn't matter how much of a nuisance you are, is putting them way out of proportion to their actual contribution to the world.
I'm not trying to be rude. I'm trying to get you to see how people suffering from over-flights feel when you respond this way.
It doesn't bother me that tourists take the flights in ignorance of the situation on the ground.
It does bother me that anyone who knows the situation on the ground would blow it off and go for the ride anyway. And then to plan to live here amongst the same people whose home space you don't respect enough to stay on the ground. I don't understand how that gets rationalized.
I've heard the rationalizations and they sound like excuses that enable people to do what they want to do and stick it to everyone else. Sorry, but that's how it comes off.
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Punapetah said: quote:
...I think that's fine if it's over the Grand Canyon or Dinosaur National Monument...
as long as it's Not In My Backyard, right? I wonder how the people who live near those parks deal with those pesky helicopters?
The helicopter tour industry, beginning at the very least with Darl's participation here, seems receptive to the idea of making necessary compromises to the benefit of the people who live below the flyways. At least that's what I take from his starting a dialogue. I doubt that you'll get them to quit their jobs, as April would have them, but you might get them to find some reasonable accomodations to your concerns. Altitude restrictions, flights originating and ending from within the park, I don't know what the answers are.
I say this with aloha: I hope to be your neighbor some day soon, Punapetah, and I share your concerns. Since I've become aware of this issue by participation on Punaweb, I'll be sure to understand what the flight plans are before I buy my retirement property. I really do hope that my son will be able to experience the volcano by helicopter, but in a way that is most acceptable to the most people who live in the area.
Darl: Just because I support helicopter flights over the volcano, do not take that as unqualified, unconditional support of the helicopter tourism industry. Be warned that I expect you and your competitors to follow the flight regulations to the letter of the law. If/when I am on the Big Island, I'll be watching your activities, and I'll not be afraid to report a violation if I see one. The next time I charter a flight, you can be certain that I will choose Blue Hawaiian, just to watch the altimeter. And yes, I do know which one's the altimeter.
Aloha.
How do I know?
Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 13:03:49
Aloha! ;-)
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KathyH said: quote:
...In the end, insisting that YOUR photos are so important in the scheme of things that it doesn't matter how much of a nuisance you are, is putting them way out of proportion to their actual contribution to the world...
You missed the part in my post, Kathy, where I talked about the experience, with the football game analogy. I'd fly without a camera, just for the experience. As you said, there are professional photographers who can take much better pix than I can. Being up in a helicopter over an active volcano, with all that that entails, is an experience not to be missed, and one that just can't be gotten second-hand. That's my message.
The other part of my message is to encourage Darl and his competitors to work with the Punatics to help ease your (our) pain. I don't have the answers to that, but it seems like a dialogue has begun to that end, and that's a good thing.
As I said to Punapetah, I fully intend on moving to the Big Island, and I would like to have the helicopter industry regulated (voluntarily or not) to the benefit of the people who live under their flight paths. I also happen to believe it is important to preserve the ability, yes, I'd even call it a right, to see the volcanos from the air.
Darl: Just because I support helicopter flights over the volcano, do not take that as unqualified, unconditional support of the helicopter tourism industry. Be warned that I expect you and your competitors to follow the flight regulations to the letter of the law. If/when I am on the Big Island, I'll be watching your activities, and I'll not be afraid to report a violation if I see one. The next time I charter a flight, you can be certain that I will choose Blue Hawaiian, just to watch the altimeter. And yes, I do know which one's the altimeter.
How do I know?
Edited by - mgeary on 11/13/2007 14:38:36
Aloha! ;-)
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