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My idea for the form of alternative energy called gravity is if you had a shipping container supposedly stromg enough to stack 10 other containers on it and the corners are where the strength is. So what if you put a flat low boy chemtainer on the back end of the container to store gravity fed water. Haven't worked out other issues like water pressure and gutter level- so gotta check out the hydro ram!! But especially if Big Brother going approve?? Any opinions even Nate??
Others want to make friends- I just want to make money.
James Cramer
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I see the concept basically working but the few concerns I have are once you start cutting into a intermodel container you lose structural integrity. You might have to tack weld a steel, RHS box into place under the water container for support. I see the best of both worlds with a two tank set up. The two stage collection would allow for increased capacity with a smaller footprint on the property and you could flush %50 of your water at a time without having zero water at any time. The primary collection tank being on the ground and fed from the rooftop gutters, in the area of maybe 5K Gal.? Then the secondary tank set on top of the container of about the same size or larger, maybe built on a platform. The primary ground tank would collect all run-off and would allow for a "first screening" of the run off. It would be best to have this be the larger of the two tanks. You could have a clean-out hole and a drain with a spigot installed on each tank. You could also have it piped with a 3" pipe for fire hoses. Water would then be pumped from the ground tank to the secondary holding tank on top of the container for holding. The pump could be a simple solar/wind pump(passive). The roof top holding tank in theory would be about 15' in the air and would dispense water for use. The water could be filtered at this point on the rootop or at the tap. You could also use black PVC arranged in a tight "S" patern on the roof to heat the water then send it to the tap using solar rays. The black PVC could also circulate thru a conventional electric water heater. An active/ on demand pump could be used to increase pressure at the rooftop tank as well. Using the formula presented here thats about 7.5 psi of water pressure(passive), give or take. That can't be right. Thats not including the volume of water put under pressure though? If it does work out to 7.5psi thats kinda weak for household use but more than good for irrigation. Upgrade the system to an active pump and it would be a kick ass system. Add a 2" 3gph pump and you could have a decent shot at fighting a fire until the pro's get there as well
Just been thinking about it for a while.
I've decided to convert a 20 ft container into a cabin/ storage box so I've been thinking about ways to trick it out. I plan on pouring four corner concrete post made of (2) 2X10's made into a box and then stacked one on the other as a form. I want to elevate the container off the ground for accesto the underside.
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Nate said:
quote:
...Add a 2" 3gph pump and you could have a decent shot at fighting a fire until the pro's get there as well...
I'm still learning about catchment systems, but municipal water supplies and firefighting is something I know about. Gravity-fed water systems are common, even in flat areas. The storage tanks are normally elevated to around 100' at a minimum, to provide the 50+ psi working pressures to service the municipal system, which feeds the residential communities. 50 psi is about the industry standard minimum pressure for a municipal water source.
You could do something along the lines of a garden irrigation system with the water stored at 20', yielding 10 psi, but I don't think that kind of pressure would work well for faucets, showers, and other household plumbing. Don't forget friction loss in the plumbing itself.
Regarding homeowner firefighting, I'd strongly advise against that. Unless you had a legitimate system that could provide about 150+ gallons per minute, with an operating pressure of 120 psi, and then had a minimum of 1-1/2" hose with an actual fire suppression nozzle, you'd be pissing in the wind against an established structure fire.
And more importantly, you'd seriously be endangering your life. There's a reason why we wear $2,500 fire-resistant turnouts, have breathing apparatus, and lots of training. The better plan for fires in the home is to have an evacuation plan and good insurance. Or consider a residential automatic sprinkler system. Things can be replaced, people cannot. Even if you only suffered a burn, you might wish you were dead.
Just the opinion of a professional firefighter. I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, Nate or mella, but it really is a serious matter. If anybody wants more information about residential sprinkler systems, I can hook you up.
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/citizens/all_cit...prinklers/
http://www.homefiresprinkler.org/
How do I know?
Edited by - mgeary on 11/28/2007 20:46:12
Aloha! ;-)
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residential sprinklers are an excellent idea especialy if your in a more isolated area. there not that difficult to install . and will even work in off grid houses
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mgeary, You are so right about leaving the firefighting to the pro's. You have to also take into account that you might be in the midle of nowhere and need water for a brush fire. We have all seen the pictures of home owners squirting down brush with garden hoses to stop advancing fires.
I have nothing but respect for fire professionals but I do think you have to be ready to take action in the event of an emergency.
My dad is a retired police officer and he always used to say " Firemen are over-rated, it's the water that does all the work."
Thanks for the sprinkler idea though.
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A further look at contaiers as watertanks. I have located a source of full sized 20x8x8'6 liner for under 900.00. If you lined it with ply on the sides only and made the overflow big (3"  you wouldn't need a top, as the container would be the top. Cut in a good sized manhole which could house a direct easy clean filter. These liners are potable 20 mil white with fully welded seams, weighing about 120 lbs(for shipping). The volume is about 10,000 gals. Also as to gravity feed, we lived with a 200 gal tank at about 10' overhead. If you use full 1" pipe thruout the house, it will provide everything including a shower with plenty of water. A somple toilet float valve switch to a 12 volt direct pump keeps the pressure up at all times. Hooked directly to your containertank, your lift is minimal and electricity is minimal. Granted you won't get blasting LA pressure but it's plenty enough and helps conserve. The key here is to make the whole system 1" minimum. Also in reguards to fire supression, shold saya volunteer unit show up, they'd have 10K of water to work with as this tank wouldn't melt.
Gordon J Tilley
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Some more info:
Pressure is from height only - makes no difference if you have 1 ounce, one gallon or 1000 gallons up there, if it's the same height (drop) you get the same pressure.
So you can put a small tank or barrel up high for pressure, and pump to it from a much larger tank down low.
If you want to use typical appliances and the kind of very small diameter plumbing put in most houses these days, realize that they are all designed for ~30+ PSI water pressure (tank pressure switches are usually 30-50 or 40-60 PSI factory setting, somewhat adjustable though).
However if you want simple living, can use larger diameter pipes and/or shorter pipe runs, and don't need the pressure for e.g. dishwashers and fancy faucets or shower heads that need high pressure or lawn sprinklers etc. then as long as your outlet is below the tank you will have water flowing just fine.
Most drip irrigation systems are built for household pressure water and will not work well if at all on low pressures. Some emitters may drip but the ratings on the emitters may not be correct at lower than standard pressures, and of course the little micro-sprayers/sprinklers will not work too well...
Soaker hoses do OK at lower pressure, most say 10-30 PSI, and you only need about 25 ft. of elevation to get 10+ PSI (~.4 PSI per foot as mentioned previously).
cheers,
John S.
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John, as the need for pressure would be intermittant, wouldn't an on demand pump provide the needed occasional use pressure to make everything work. Could be 110AC or 12V battery or both. Could also pump the tank. This would require a little plumbing but would be more water efficient! Remembering the price of hauled water last time, now add fuel adjustments and we know it's goana be dry again! Lets get silly and add "carbon offset" and the world is saved! Cheers!
Gordon J Tilley
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Mella, Not to be too obvious and the other responders have probably already covered this, but... we have a tiny solar pump for our 15000 gal catchment tank, and it pumps adequately up to the second floor where the house is. But, the hose connected to the base of the tank that goes to the pump has a two-way valve so if you want gravity water you turn off the flow to the pump and use the hose by gravity alone. This is how we shower (in the yard), water plants, etc so as to not overuse the pump.
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quote:
Originally posted by gtill
John, as the need for pressure would be intermittant, wouldn't an on demand pump provide the needed occasional use pressure to make everything work. Could be 110AC or 12V battery or both. Could also pump the tank. ...
The typical setup is a pressure pump and pressure tank, yes.
If you do not have a situation for gravity flow, you use a "normal" pressure tank, and some kind of pump to pressurize it.
In general bigger is better for pressure tanks since a bigger tank makes for more efficient pump use (pump doesn't come on as often) and longer pump life (pump runs a bit longer when it does come on - lots of very short runs shorten pump life).
If you are off-grid then you want to use a higher-efficiency (lower power usage) DC pump such as a flowlight booster pump ($$$ but more durable and up to 65 PSI) or shurflow diaphragm pump ($ but shorter-lived/needing more maintenace and max 45 PSI).
You can use those on-grid too, just to use less power, AC versions are available.
The "normal" AC-grid-power pumps used with pressure tanks are power hogs - the flowlight uses 1/2 to 1/3 the power, the shurflo probably a bit less.
A low-flow direct solar pumping setup to a higher tank for gravity pressure will use yet less energy, if you have the terrain or structure to get the elevation you need. And of course you'll still have pressure when you have no electrical power.
At the very least, be sure to have a gravity flow tap on your tank so you can get water out easily if power, pump or tank fails.
cheers,
John S.
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