"Green Living"

[JWFITZ]

Hi April, don't worry, I'm pretty thick skinned.

I think the best source of very compelling arguments against clearing of any sort come from modern Earth Systems Science school of thought, most notably from James Lovelock and like thinkers. The problem with clearing, especially in the rainforest, is that we have a tendency to think in terms of area(ie, acres) of loss of carbon pumping capacity, not in terms of volume, which is more accurately the case. For example, an 100 by 100 patch of rainforest is really a sponge absorbing co2 nearly 100 feet high as well, when one includes the canopy, vines etc. So, really, when you lose that roughly 1 million cubic feet of plant life, it will take a patch of grassland or farmland 1000 feet on a side to remove the same level of co2, roughly assuming an average depth of planted crops of a 1.5 feet or so. Obvious off the cuff estimate, but I'm sure you get the point. The issue is that any developed land, even farmland, is vastly less effective at maintaining climate than native forest, and the loss of it is very very difficult to replace. Does that make sense? It becomes especially dangerous in areas, like Puna, where the rainfall conveyance is heavily dependent on the stability of the adiabatic lapse rate--or the rate of cooling of hot air as it rises from a warm surface. Hot flat surfaces make air rise more quickly, where deep dense surfaces retain cooler air longer through the day. This matters in cumulus cloud formation--as we see in Puna, as the rain clouds form and march up the hill. If the lapse rate gets too low, as air rises too fast, the rain simply punches up into the trade winds up high and gets blown away. This is a real threat to the Hawaiian climate that we don't take seriously enough, but is a threat anywhere.

Trees really are the key. This is why when we see native forest cut down to raise biofuels we should scream bloody murder. I find myself running amok here in Hawaii of the eco-crowd who's all worried about invasive plants and is all fired up about chopping down all the eucalyptus, etc. We're way past that point, in much more dire circumstances, and everything green, native or not is precious.

Hows that for starts?

[james weatherford]

Aloha Jay,

Thanks for starting this thread. (Rob, you and Jay and families are invited to my front porch to expand on this conversation. Beer's on me.)


Trees are definitely key.

The perspective from the fern and ohia mauka is clearly where Jay is coming from regarding zero clearing; and this is something our community needs to get on with.

Another perspective strongly indicates a need to change the use of land now in 'trees'.
In the lands approximately adjoining and makai of Keaau-Pahoa Road and Pahoa-Kalapana Road, as well as along the Volcano Highway from Keaau to Mountain View, there are tens of thousands of acres -- some with soil and some rocky -- that are over run with large and very aggressive invasive tree species (e.g., albizia, socropia, causarina, etc). These invasives became established in abandoned cane fields and have now spread into native forests, including conservation areas.
There are extensive areas of Puna land formerly in sugar, as well as coffee, papaya, citrus, and taro, that are now over grown by invasive species, especially large trees.
The use of these lands (for the simple purpose of having good food to eat) is something the community needs to get on with.




James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[Rob Tucker]

James, I'd join you and Jay for a chew the fat on your porch. There are enough theories on sustainability to make for an interesting talk. Someone give me a call and tell me when.

Rob 965-1555

[james weatherford]

Nalu Mama,

Your poopy post was prescient!

Here's the trigger it had for me.
One urban local legend goes something like this: many, many more people used to live on this island and/or all of these islands.
Sometime the number is as high as 800,000 for all the islands or just this island.
This story is always told to demonstrate how much this Paradise can produce and therefore demonstrate our folly in living on imported stuff.
This is good.
However, for a few years now I have been responding, "Yes, due to natural bounty, the ability to produce everything a large population needs is here. However, where is the evidence of how such a large population dealt with its fecal waste?" That's a lot of poop!
Fertilizer? Yes, have done in Asia for millenia and still do. Health impacts? It is good advice to the Occidental visitor to the Orient to not eat uncooked greens, roots, or any part of the plant that touches the soil. Alway wash food throughly.

In Hawaii, what about kalo? That's about as in contact with the soil as it gets!
Lacking any serious ideas as to an explanation, I have asked myself if perhaps, there were no micro-organisms harmful to the human population here? Clean living?

Nalu Mama, your poopy post was seismic!

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[jdirgo]

Just a question because I'm curious. From what I remember of my economics classes in college, the financial cost of many items does not truly match their real costs ("extrinsic factors", or something like that).

So, assuming that the free market does actually work, would it be worthwhile to try to adjust the cost of items to reflect their "real" lifetime costs?

I'm hoping someone more eloquent than me comes along and clarifies what I'm trying to say. Of course, that would imply that they understood what I was trying to say and that would be quite a leap.

John Dirgo, R, ABR, e-PRO
Aloha Coast Realty, LLC
808-987-9243 cell
http://www.alohacoastrealty.com

[JWFITZ]

Likewise, and nice to meet you James- since you've graciously offered your place I'll assume you're up to coordinating schedules as well. I'm working at my place for the next couple of months to my schedule is my own and more or less any time is fine. I'm more likely to hear phone calls in the morning as there's less chance of saws running.

769-0521

Jay

[JWFITZ]

Nice to see the interest generated, a couple observations.

Well engineered composting toilets work just fine, with very little trouble of biopathagens if properly maintained. Both of those can be a big if, but they do work. I have a good friend here that is a civil engineer and can certify such things if anyone is interested. Your water usage will be half of what it currently is.

In terms of costs reflecting reality? Well, this issue is about to be placed upon us by the free market itself, like or not, as we face a future of real material shortages, and no longer will it be possible to simply get something for nothing, out of the ground. This will impact our economy in ways we cannot yet fathom. Oil is the obvious issue, but one of only several very important commodities we're mostly out of. Copper is another. Helium, believe it or not, is yet another.

Does that mean a wild sockeye salmon ought to cost about 100000 bucks? If the harvest of it destroys the resource, of course!

[Mitzi M]

I find myself running amok here in Hawaii of the eco-crowd who's all worried about invasive plants and is all fired up about chopping down all the eucalyptus, etc. We're way past that point, in much more dire circumstances, and everything green, native or not is precious.

Hows that for starts?
[/quote]

Weeell...I guess I'm one of the "eco-crowd" - and it feels good to think we're big enough to be a crowd![]

Invasive species are now the number one threat to Hawai'i's ecosystems. Intact native Hawaiian plant communities are extrordinarily diverse, with many niches, while alien species tend to form monotypic stands. When you go into a reasonably healthy native forest you find lots of different plants that have adapted to grow together from low growing ground plants all the way through understory and epiphytes. In places dominated by invasives you find....well, pretty much just invasives. They are very good at excluding any competition. I say a healthy native forest here would undoubtedly do a much better job at absorbing Co2. In order to prevent our remaining forests from being overrun by invasive plants and animals I believe invasive species management is a worthy and neccessary goal. (For a scary example of alien takeover check out what happened to Tahiti.) So does this mean we should just go mow down all the eucalyptus on the Hamakua coast all at once? I don't know - probably not. It's hard to grow a native forest from nothing on degraded land, especially in our lifetimes. It's not like planting a cornfield. Also, alien weeds will quickly replace whatever you remove if you don't get something else established there first. I do agree that a more environmentally sound approach should be taken in land use planning.

Nalu Mama, I like the way you think. For 8 years I had an "alternative toilet" and used poop mixed with liberal amounts of sawdust that I composted for at least 1 year on my gardens. After that amount of time it made beautiful soil and didn't have an odor. There's an awesome book I found called Humanure[:0] that has a lot of good info about using...well, poop for the petunias and potatoes.

Mitzi

[JWFITZ]

Hi Mitzi, nice to meet you, be assured I agree with you in sentiment entirely,

but. . .

Number one threat according to who?

Compared to a 5 degree C change in 100 years?

Compared to the Intertropical Convergent Zone far enough north that we loose the trades, for all or part of the year?

Compared to business as usual development and crappy building?

I would have a pretty hard time believing that. After all, the stands of invasive trees aren't ideal, but not dead zones either. Dead zones and desertification may be what we face. If we loose 20 inches of rain a year, even that, the game is up for Hawaii. The vilification of these very viable species are what leads to biomass to energy plants--and that will lead to wholesale logging of these areas to keep lights burning--and what after we burn it all down?

I worry we progressives simply ape notions that made sense 30 years ago because even we are that far behind the times. That's my point about the invasives. I'm listening to the data, but I can't help but believe it's rapidly becoming a fringe issue and a distraction--although wholly valid and important--but at this late date we simply don't have the luxury of dealing with it.

Thoughts?

[james weatherford]

The issue about "invasives" was that the trees covering a lot of land in the lower elevations of Puna are not native forests, are growing on land that has long been out of native forests, and are killing native trees (i.e., ohia lehua) on land that has been set aside for the purpose of preserving native forests.
The point is not that invasives are the 'number one' issue.
Yes, invasives do produce CO2 and help clean the hydorogicial works.
However, replacing invasives with tree crops, rotated annual crops, and perennial pastures to produce food locally for local markets also greatly reduces the footprint of what we eat. Assuming that food production is not simply a 'lofty goal'.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park