A potential solution

[mgeary]

Just my $0.02 worth: whether it's gasoline (87, 89, or 91 octane), 80/20 ethanol, biodiesel, avgas, kerosene, wood, coal, diesel, propane, LNG, methane, pentane, heptane, whatever, you're burning carbon. Doesn't matter what the efficiency rating is, you're still burning carbon. The waste gases are CO, CO2, and oxides of nitrogen.

I'm looking forward to burning hydrogen. The waste gas is water.

I'm glad you're not accepting the status quo, and being innovative, JWFITZ, I'm just saying the future is hydrogen, IMHO. We're not there, yet, and may not be for another decade or so, but hydrogen is the clean alternative fuel.

Aloha! ;-)

[JWFITZ]

You are completely right, I am still burning carbon, at least mostly. Holtzman gas is a blend of things, and the major component actually IS hydrogen. The burner gets hot enough it breaks the water molecules apart and the O2 gets absorbed by the the charcoal.

But, I'm burning carbon that I personally grew, and that makes a pretty big difference, and it's a technology wholly self-sustainable if one has the discipline to keep it that way. Unlike bio-diesil or ethanol, there's next to no energy waste component in processing. The wood fuel is used directly. I suppose the saw that I cut the wood with it constitutes processing, but that's running on holtzman gas too.

As for hydrogen, it's a ways off and you'll be waiting a while. There's real problems with it.

It must be stored at very high pressures, and unfortunately has a tendency to make steels of any sort, or a lot of metals actually, very brittle. Composite tanks will work, but one still needs fittings, etc. It would take a complete composite technology with ceramic motors. That's a very long way off.

Fuel cells work, but same problems apply.

You must MANUFACTURE the hydrogen somehow, which takes immense energy, and that energy at this point comes from burning carbon. You could use "greener" sources of power, nuclear, but we're not even close to the capacity to take on the direct manufacture of fuel. If anything, power grids throughout the US are antiquated and often unable to meet demand at peak times. Centralized electricity generation is a bad idea in many ways anyhow, as nearly half of all the power generated is lost in the wires before it gets to you.

To get hydrogen up and running you'll need:

widespread composite technology.
widespread ceramic engines or fuel cells
a delivery system for hydrogen
a power grid with 2 to 3 times the current power out-put
a power source to power this grid that is not "carbon based"
and an economy robust enough to support this complete refit of existing infrastructure.

I'd say, fat chance.

Most people don't think about it, but an electric car has much higher emissions than a modern california certified car. Why? It likely gets its electricity at a 50 percent grid waste from a powerplant built in the late sixtys, burning coal.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ
...But, I'm burning carbon that I personally grew, and that makes a pretty big difference, and it's a technology wholly self-sustainable if one has the discipline to keep it that way.....

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So what happens when you run out of stuff that you have grown?

I mean it takes a long time to grow a "2 x 4".

[Rob Tucker]

There is no carbon based resource which is "free". Solar might be considered a "free" resource if you can catch it. Wind too. Solar powered chainsaws haven;t shown up yet though.

I have always liked one thing about wind power. IF you can capture it - in a pressure vessel for example, you can store it at 100% without loos or depletion.

[JWFITZ]

a 15 year old eucalyptus tree weighs probably 3000 lbs. All of the tree, leaves and all, are usable. As is cardboard, paper, etc. If I assume I've got 20000 lbs of strawberry guava and other unusable mostly deadfall on my property, a fair assumption I think, probably conservative. At 20 lbs a day, if I did that, which would be high figure for me, I'd be three to six years into the game before I ran low on simple trash. That assumes no guava regrows, but you'd probably regrow perhaps a ton a year on three acres. I think these are very conservative figures. Agricultural output of most crops in our climate are typically 6 to ten tons an acre in biomass. Obviously, the goal is to gradually cull the lot into higher grade biomass, so if one plants eucalyptus, harvests those, koa, on down the line, it's a pretty doable long term plan, or certainly more so than anything else I can envision. You'll burn up a generator or two, and maybe rust out the gas maker, but these are cheap items compared to the fuel and power they make. This is as close and fair as I can work the math, but I hope to have the whole works permanently installed by mid next week, and I'll do my best to give real numbers. The generator itself will still run on gasoline for times you need a simple startup, but for long hours of run and idle you'll run wood gas, as in that case it's really no burden. It is an on demand system, it runs any time I care to fire it up, and it can run all day from November to Feburary if I want it too. Solar will not turn a watt for 3 months of the year here.

As for solar, a 10 kw solar array, an enormous array of 125 80 watt BP panels: to compare fairly, one that has the potential to offer the same service, at least that 50 percent of the time that the sun shines, will cost nearly a 100000 dollars. It simply will never make that kind of value in power. Never ever. and we're talking about a array that will cover 750 square feet of your lot, nearly twice the footprint of my house. And you'll have a generator too.

[gtill]

I have a 12V chainsaw, a Ryobi and not he best, which could be charged by solar or wind, which would do well on strawberry guava!

Plus I bet some would pay or trade to get rid of a big ole clump of st guava, which, with a woodgas unit could recharge the batteries, possibly making a profit if repeated.

And if electric wasn't so expensive we could have electric cars! Hmm?

How do you save Wind?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ

er, yeah, obviously I'm celebrating. . .hey, I'm out of beer!

That would be one hour 15 minutes at -/+ 10 kw output.

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You out of beer again []

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ

a 15 year old eucalyptus tree weighs probably 3000 lbs. All of the tree, leaves and all, are usable. As is cardboard, paper, etc. If I assume I've got 20000 lbs of strawberry guava and other unusable mostly deadfall on my property, a fair assumption I think, probably conservative. At 20 lbs a day, if I did that, which would be high figure for me, I'd be three to six years into the game before I ran low on simple trash. That assumes no guava regrows, but you'd probably regrow perhaps a ton a year on three acres. I think these are very conservative figures.....

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Ok... Like I said... I suck at Math... but let me try to break these numbers down:

20 lbs a day times 30 days in a month: 600 Lbs. per month.
12 months in a year times 600 lbs = 7200 lbs.

A ton = 1000 lbs... Where are you going to make up the 6200 lbs.?[8]

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Depending on Agriculture for power is just not reliable. Think Ethanol.... Yeah the numbers sounded good at first... but we sure are taking a beating now.

I think what your doing is great on a small term project... but as far as Huge Corporations needing to clear cut to provide just doesn't jive for me.[8D]

[Rob Tucker]

I think I have about 2,000,000 guava on my acres. I am certainly interested in them as a resurce if at all possible. I will check out JW's methods.

As for How to save wind?

You use a wind powered compressor. If you can add a high pressure vessal to that you can tuck wind power away all week or month until you need it. In Europe they use wind power to operate football stadiums. Monday thru Friday the stadiums sit empty. Come Staurday they need power for 30,000 people. So their turbines pack the ocean breezes into pressure vessals to run air powered generators on demand. Not the best for day to day uses, but energy is energy. Europe knows that. We are still trying to figure it out.

There is no one answer. It will be a combination of technologies that fuel our future - or we will be in the dark.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Tucker

I think I have about 2,000,000 guava on my acres.

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You should be selling guava's [] if you aren't already.

I bet labor wise it would be more profitable [?]

Guava vs. Energy... My next thread [:p] j/k

[gtill]

Rob, thanks, interesting, I've heard of compressed air cars, but not much about municipal uses for wind! Amazing the stuff we forget because we never needed it because gas or electric was always there!