A good place to start restoring community values:

[james weatherford]

quote:

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Originally posted by Damon

Dr. W -

I think you misquoted me []

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It is the way... the way it is.

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Yeah, well, I'm just me and you are web el supremo!

sorry! just sloppy key board work.



James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[olin137]

I wonder if the discussion is a little off track. Assuming $12/hr is the going day labor rate, then hasn't the "market" set that rate? What about the possibility that the community has no other jobs that might compete for available workers? If there were some other opportunities in Hawaii, then would the available pool of day workers go down, and thus supply/demand have to raise the pay?

Olin

[james weatherford]

You are right. That is why I paid $12/hr, to top the $10 paid elsewhere and feel fine in only inviting back a worker who does what is asked of them.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[JWFITZ]

Nice to see the constructive responses.

Let's assume you were going to rent a piece of equipment from me, for 8 hours, and the machine cost me 20000 dollars, and has a useful service life of 100000 hours. I think all of us could calculate a fair price and rate of return for the rental of that machine.

Unfortunately, when we get to renting human beings, that sort of business logic seldom applies. The "going rate" doesn't mean the fair rate, that means the "going rate." The "going rate" has a lot to do with the level of desperation present in the community. Many choose to capitalize on the "going rate," but I think it's not very difficult, if one is so inclined, to calculate in the same manner what it might cost to rent a human being, and cover those costs.

As well, I would go so far as to re-point out the, well, what I'd see as an obligation, as one who has had the privilege to bring mainland money into a depressed economy and capitalize on that privilege, to attempt to raise the depressed people in this community to that same level of privilege. This is a moral position, not a business one. Ultimately it's up to you, and may depend on where you are in life and what you're doing.

Still, I will insist, and I doubt any could sensibly disagree, that if mainlanders with mainland money paid mainland wages, the level of hatred here for mainlanderwould be a whole lot less.

Things to think about.

I guess there are two types of people. There are those who expect their friends to come volunteer and work for them for free or a case of beer, and there are those who, like myself, feel obligated to pay their friends far beyond the going rate. There's an argument to both, but I can tell you who will have more friends.

[Hotzcatz]

It is difficult to pay friends around here. Giving them money is a deep insult. I have a friend on Oahu who is going to pick my nephew up at the airport in August, take him to the university dorms, get him a bus pass and in general get him oriented to Oahu - this is a mainland nephew and the poor kid is going to be terribly confused and he will need a mentor. They will probably end up friends since they share a lot of the same interests, but at the moment, my Oahu friend is doing me and my sister a huge favor but he still won't take any money for it. We will at some point send him something to make up for it - perhaps disguised as a birthday or Christmas present - but directly giving him money to do this favor for us is impossible.

[pslamont]

This has been a most interesting thread. Since my name has been tossed around a few times, I feel I can jump in. I am NOT insulted by anything said so far.

Truth is, I figured that paying a few dollars above minimum wage to laborers who's skills generally are limited was pretty fair. I ask nothing more than that they do their best, be willing to learn, be willing to say when they can't do something or don't know how and generally be honest. Like others hiring temporary day laborers, you never know what you will get. You increase the wage based on what you do get. Few of my guys here leave without fresh eggs, fresh basked bread, maybe fruit or veggies and pork, lamb or goat meat for their families in addition to their wages.

Working for me is NOT a career, and is not even a good job, except that I am flexible, encouraging everyone to find a better job if they can. Most of the guys who come work for me let me know each day if they can be back the next, or have something else they need to do. I am happy to say that I hired a local fellow that has been hunting Pigs here on my property for two years. He is doing a great job building some animal houses and doing fencing. He is in between "real jobs" and is starting a class next week from 10-1 PM every day for his higher level commercial truck driving license. He says he is THRILLED with $10 an hour, especially since hecan come to work when he can fit it in, etc... I do not feel I take advantage. I asked him about this and he laughed. He says Hawaiian's hire one another for less than minimum wage sometimes and thinks I am most generous. Go figure.

I admit I have some land but I am by no means rich and our land is not producing anything but huge monthly bills so far. I am hoping we get operating effectively in the next five years. Most of you know that I am disabled and have limited knowledge to go along with my "wanting" body. But I keep trying! You have all had a good laugh at my expense more than once, and that is fine because I am laughing right along with you. Still, I am learning and will try to make this thing work (ranching) if my body doesn't give out and I can keep finding project labor that I can manage to pay at the end of every day.

Also, I am totally thankful for friends who come over and work just to help out.. sometimes for me, sometimes for some "do-gooder, charity-type project" that I have going. I guess I feel I give as much back to this community as I can, sharing what I produce whenever I can and sharing knowledge too. If nothing else, many of you laughingly say, "Heck, if PAM can manage to grow some lettuce, some fruit, some green beans, raise a few sheep and some chickens, we sure can!!!"

In a bigger picture, we do honestly need better paying jobs for skilled workers, and appropriate training to give workers those skills. The truth is also that in a rural community, there will always be a need for day or project labor and any of it that comes in higher than minimum wage is generally appreciated by the people accepting it.

I have never intended to be a permanent employer but I sure do appreciate the work laborers have done for me. If I can help someone over a rough hump with a little work and set them free to do better when it comes along, I figure I haven't taken advantage at all, but simply found a balance where we can help one another for a while.

Wow, this is rambling. Sorry for that; guess I am tired (and excited about leaving on my trip to Thailand). I sure hope that in the long run, I am more a benefit to my community than the drain implied here. I will just keep on doing the best I can. Any of you who can afford to pay a man $20 an hour to pull weeds sure have found a money crop! Good on ya. You are smarter than me! I will just keep plugging along and say THANK YOU to everyone who has helped make my adventure here in Hawaii such a great one.

Aloha, Pam

Just another day in P A R A D I S E !!

[rusty h]

we need more people like james and pam!

peace

[JWFITZ]

Let's assume that the mass migration of people who cannot make a living here continues.

Let's assume two years from now we get a hurricane, and a fair number of new houses down the hill get torn to bits.

Would you all feel it to be fair and just for labor in that environment of need to be charging "the going rate?" Or would many of you feel that price gouging to be "taking advantage" of people in a desperate situation?

Be careful, there's not only a moral concern but a sensible selfish one here too. In the affluent boomer enclaves of Sausalito, or Tiberon, or San Rafael, for example, where I had my last boat moored for about a year, you couldn't get anybody to wash your car for under a 100 bucks. I'm not kidding, that that's because no one of working class can afford to live within 80 miles. That sort of situation is a long ways away here, but as many capitalize on near 3rd world levels of education and resources on a community level, this sort of trend can only advance and could escalate.

As for the wages I pay, I'm able to afford that on the modest income I generate by living proportionately modest, having very few large projects that would require outside labor, and, well, I don't take vacations to Thailand. Not to bust anyone here too much, and we all must make our deal with the devil, and there's a whole lot of ways to wiggle the issue, but paying people well communicates respect in any culture and in any language, and if anything, is the utter backbone of any meaning improvement in quality of life.

I think there is a flip side of the issue too. Having done a lot of construction, woodworking, etc., what I find myself gravitating and doing more and more is what I call the "handiman" sort of work. There is a real need for people of comprehensive skills that can, say, replace a hot water heater for a sensible amount of money. While many people I work for are of sensible means, it's not rare to encounter people who are in desperate situations, for example, an elderly couple who need a hot water heater. In no way is it of any sort of "community value" to bust people in that situation the "going rate." One can afford that sort of give-away labor by the same sort of lifestyle that allows me to pay good living wages to those I might hire. I'm not compelled to drive the 50000 dollar diesel super cab truck to prove I build things, I don't need 3 cell phones, and again, I live very modestly. There is a community spirit in that as well, and one that serves me pretty well, I think.

It cuts both ways, for sure.

[Rob Tucker]

The manner of dealing with workers wages I've used is that I don't tell anyone what I will pay. I ask them to tell me how they value their time and what they are and are not willing to do. I don't negotiate. I either accept their self valuation or I don't. I won't pay below a certain point though just for my own self respect. If they perform at, or above, expectations I reward accordingly. I think any person looking for work should be able to, and has an obligation to, name a price.

I learned long ago that there are those who want to work and there are those who just want to be paid. If I need to be present watching every minute then I don't need that person. If I can agree on a task with someone and trust them to do it to the best of their ability then I just found a valuable member of the community. If you find a good worker by all means take good care of them.

[JWFITZ]

I agree completely with you, Rob. In no way should my comments be taken to mean that I'm suggesting pure charity, giving money away, or rewarding shiftlessness. There is a fair lot of that here, and I don't intend to comment on that.

I simply want to emphasize that I believe it to be morally reprehensible to exploit trapped or desperate people either by paying them too little or charging them too much. Both behaviors are "anti-social" and do not work towards a better community and a better world. As well, I want to point out, and others have commented and agreed, that a LOT of businesses make their money in exactly that way--that their profitably is contingent on exploiting people. The farm industry in general is a very good case of this sort of industry, much of the time. Recognizing this, those of us who want to work for a better future and world must recognize that our situation is akin to being in a boat with a dozen other people--we decide it would be better for all if we rowed to the north. Unfortunately, there's a couple of big guys in the back that want to row south for personal reasons, and a lot of other people are simply rowing aimlessly or doing what they're told. It's only by pulling like the devil in the direction we need to go that any progress will be made, and often positions that may seem at first glance to be a little extreme many be the only ones that actually effectually suffice.